Double Bass How the heck did they do it?

[fingerbun]

I once did a recording in a small home studio where we really struggled with spill between upright bass and drums. The bass was spilling into the drum mikes too much!

Kudos to a drummer who didn't need to be loud to sound good.

 

[Phil Rowan]

So it's the player and his or her hands and ears that create the sound, not necessarily the quality of the instrument.


Ric

Whoa, are you serious?? I hadn't the slightest idea!

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I once did a recording in a small home studio where we really struggled with spill between upright bass and drums. The bass was spilling into the drum mikes too much!

Kudos to a drummer who didn't need to be loud to sound good.

Was there a need to actually have isolation? If the track was slammin' then the separation is moot.... the best times I've had recording were when separation was impossible. We spent our time playing and getting a good group dynamic.
-J

 

[uprightbass.com]

Haha bass guitarists who rely on an amp sound just as bad as upright bassists that do. It seems that upright players are more open to the idea that your sound is really in your hands, and that you don't infact need a bunch of gear to get good tone. I hate it when I see anybody sit on stage and fondle the strings on a bass instead of just digging in and going for it, ya dig?

Nah man, the reason that my tone is weak is because I need to switch string brands, need a better bass guitar with exotic woods, switch pickups in the bass, switch amp heads, and add a cab with more speakers. I saw a digital processor at NAMM that will help solve the tone problem. I like ______'s tone so I'm going to sell my gear/save up so that I can have the same rig as him.

 

[plangentmusic]

I'd imagine most PA's back then weren't great. So, more to the point...

Big Hands

High action

Full Size Basses

Hard Playing

And drummers who knew how to swing hard without bashing.

I'm always amazed how strong those guys were -- even the unknown guys. It seemed that playing loud acoustically was mandatory for bassists back then. They were monsters.

 

[Marc Piane]

Also, let's not confuse the size and presence of a sound with some sheer physical effort. Anyone who has played gut especially but steels to an extent knows that there is a point where the strings start to bottom out. The only strings I've met that rose to everything I could dish out were Evah Regulars and even at that you get a law of diminishing returns. So it really gets to finding how to get the biggest/fullest sound out of the bass not necessarily the loudest.

Also, when you play without an amp, you have to get used to living in a different sonic space. Trying to hear yourself in the same place you do when you have an amp is just inviting frustration and ultimately injury.

 

[Les Fret]

I'd imagine most PA's back then weren't great. So, more to the point...

Big Hands

High action

Full Size Basses

Hard Playing

Great topic! I think the past is romanticized too much here. I think when they had good pickups and amplification in those these most players would have used it. Most greats (Ray Brown, Ron Carter) from that day used amplification later in their careers anyway. That has a reason. I don't think 'faster' players like Scott La Faro or Eddie Gomez for example had such a high action in those days.

Not all DB sounds from those days were that great either. High action is great to achieve some more volume but also has much disadvantages: less speed, higher risk for injuries etc.
The DB has evolved since the 50's so why should be we play without amplification and high action? Sure the bass sounds best acoustically but when they can't hear you you are lost anyway. When you play with a drummer who plays a bit louder you already need amplification to be heard. Like Eric said for 95% of the playing situations I need amplification to be heard. And my acoustic tone is not weak at all.

 

[Earl]

Well, for 90% of my jazz playing situations I use no amplification and am heard quite well, and I play with some loud drummers! So like everything else, it just depends. I personally prefer to play that way, but I am also not adverse to putting the pickup on when the situation calls for it.

 

[fdeck]

I've often wondered if volume levels are a regional thing. Does jazz get played louder in the Midwest? Also, I wonder if loud audiences contribute to loud bands. I've measured in excess of 90 dB of crowd noise on stage with my SPL meter.

Or loud bassists. At one point I realized that the guy who was driving up the volume level was me. That was during a period when I was playing with a magnetic pickup capable of obscenely high gain. I would tell myself: "I'll just play with a really light touch." Yeah, right. Along comes a hot tune, and up go the volume levels.

It's pretty rare that I can play without an amp. Often, it's the band that will ask for more bass.

My latest experiment is to play at a volume level where the rest of the band can drown me out if they want to, and where I have to dig in a bit in order to keep up. It allows the other players to have their fun with loud passages, but then they have to come back down again. It also lets me get that "digging in" tone when I want it, without starting a volume war with the rest of the band.

 

[Ric Vice]

...... Also, I wonder if loud audiences contribute to loud bands. I've measured in excess of 90 dB of crowd noise on stage with my SPL meter.

I think that a crowded room with lot's of people talking creates a noise floor where they get louder and louder in response to turning up the amps or the pa and and they will win that battle. If you try and push the
volume past that the host or hostess will usually ask the band to turn down. We did a gig once where the hostess kept asking us to turn down (really good drummer) and the crowd actually got softer. This isn't always the case however. I always try and look for a corner of the room thats away from the body of the crowd and play from there.

Ric

 

[Ric Vice]

Well, for 90% of my jazz playing situations I use no amplification and am heard quite well, and I play with some loud drummers! So like everything else, it just depends. I personally prefer to play that way, but I am also not adverse to putting the pickup on when the situation calls for it.

Earl,
Well put, I also think that some instruments are easier to hear acoustically and project sound differently. My bass sounds great for duo gigs in a good acoustical environment or with a bow. It's also a matter of how hard you want work to produce sound and how well you bass carries out into the room.

Ric

 

[Mike Goodbar]

This is probably true for many others here, but I play exactly the same way with an amp as I do without an amp. I know there's a certain way I need to address the bass in order to get the maximum volume and tone acoustically. When the acoustic volume fails for the situation, the the amp is simply there for reinforcement, not to make it "easier" for me to play.

I've probably described this experiment in some other thread. I had brought an amp to a trio gig. For the second set, I neglected to turn it on, but didn't discover it until the set was over and I reached back to turn it "off."

I continued with the amp off for the next set, and at one point the drummer leaned over and asked if I could "turn up." So I reached back and made a big deal of turning the volume knob up on my lifeless amp and continued playing just as I had. I asked the drummer, "Is that better?" and he said, "Oh, yeah, man. MUCH." The drummer, I think, just became more attuned the volume at that point.

 

[kuys]

Weren't most DB parts in those days just double by a electric baritone to get good volume? I believe it was called Tic Tac Bass.

 

[Earl]

Absolutely Rick!

Mike - I always bring an amp if I have never played the room before. One night on a gig in a new place, I set the amp up but realized I didn't need it so never turned it on. Played the same gig a week later, didn't bring the amp. After the first set the pianist asked 'where's your amp'? I explained that I didn't need it in there and he said 'last week I heard you much better'!

 

[lucas vigor]

Weren't most DB parts in those days just double by a electric baritone to get good volume? I believe it was called Tic Tac Bass.

Only used in early country western music.

 

[lucas vigor]

I have done a few gigs completely unamplified. One that stands out was that we were hired for a wedding reception in a cement courtyard, and for some reason the bass just carried and carried beautifully! I was laughing because we played the whole 3 hour gig that way!

But, here is the rub: No drummer!


I can see how bands in the day, like Bill Evans, could pull this off....they drummers knew how to play very quietly!

However, I am not sure how the high action is really doable.

For example, I could concievably play my bands sets with high action, except that our leader loves to throw bass solos at me.....and I just don't know how I could do the super audience grabbing stuff with high action.

My action is medium. Not so low that it is like an electric fretless bass with all the "mwah" and everything, but definitely not as high as a bass used for rockabilly, for instance.