How to approach m7b5 chords?

[Wasnex]

I get that. Makes sense to me. Although I would point out, it's only "easier" to you because of your preexisting familiarity with the ø symbol. If you haven't played this type of chord before, then the "min7b5" notation gives you the information you need to figure out the chord tones (by taking a min7 chord and flatting the 5th).

My other minor issue with the "half diminished" nomenclature is that it implies these chords are somehow related to, or derived from, full diminished chords. When in fact min7b5 chords are naturally-occurring, diatonic within the major scale.

Not sure where you get the idea that the "'half diminished' nomenclature...implies these chords are somehow related to, or derived from, full diminished chords." My limited formal theory training was classical in nature and taught me that half diminished 7 chords are naturally occurring and diatonic. When I started learning to read out of the real book, the chord notation (ø7) was intuitive and made perfect sense to me. As I remember, Jazz notation for 6 chords was not intuitive and needed a bit of explanation. Maybe my schools theory program was more progressive than I thought.

IMHO min7b5 may be easier to see/read but ø7 is easier to write/comprehend...but that's me and surely based on my experience and preconceptions...after decades of experience, it doesn't really matter much one way or the other to be honest.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

On a Mac, I hold down the 'o' key for a few seconds, and it pops up a selection of o-like symbols. The ø is number 6.

But what about WINDOWS?

 

[Lownote38]

Not sure where you get the idea that the "'half diminished' nomenclature...implies these chords are somehow related to, or derived from, full diminished chords." My limited formal theory training was classical in nature and taught me that half diminished 7 chords are naturally occurring and diatonic. When I started learning to read out of the real book, the chord notation (ø7) was intuitive and made perfect sense to me. As I remember, Jazz notation for 6 chords was not intuitive and needed a bit of explanation. Maybe my schools theory program was more progressive than I thought.

IMHO min7b5 may be easier to see/read but ø7 is easier to write/comprehend...but that's me and surely based on my experience and preconceptions...after decades of experience, it doesn't really matter much one way or the other to be honest.

That's how I learned it as well, so you aren't alone. The program I went through started with classical, and half diminished is naturally occurring. We then split off into commercial training (jazz), and spent a lot of time correcting chords in Real Book charts so they made better harmonic sense. Many of the chords labeled as augmented were actually b13 chords, and many of the b5 chords were actually #11 chords when major, or half diminished when minor. It all made much more sense to me that way.

 

[Wasnex]

But what about WINDOWS?

Copy and paste works ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7 . I spent a couple of hours trying to figure it out awhile back. I found the directions for how to do it with Windows, but the required font family is apparently not loaded on my computer.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Copy and paste works ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7ø7 . I spent a couple of hours trying to figure it out awhile back. I found the directions for how to do it with Windows, but the required font family is apparently not loaded on my computer.

I think your comment shows why I prefer to notate that chord as min7b5 instead of ø7.

P.S. Nothing is easy when I'm getting older while the technology is getting younger.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. Another one of my pet peeves is that I cannot listen to mp3 soundclips at TB with my iphone.

 

[Lownote38]

P.S. Another one of my pet peeves is that I cannot listen to mp3 soundclips at TB with my iphone.

Why not? No problems doing that with my Samsung phone.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Why not? No problems doing that with my Samsung phone.

Android-based...

 

[Lownote38]

Android-based...

Yep. Is it because your phone is Apple? I didn't know there was an issue like that if so. :-/

 

[Two-Spirit]

C#m7b5 to F#

I've got a few phrases I employ when we play those, primarily using the chord tones as that works but what else can I do?[/QUOTE]

My songwriter buddy is often using a Minor7 flat 5 chord leading to a major.

Commonly it'll be Bm7b5 to E Major or

C#m7b5 to F#

I've got a few phrases I employ when we play those, primarily using the chord tones as that works but what else can I do?

Bm-5 and E both have G# So go B G# E, come to think of it thats an E major arpeggio. Being able to strum chords on a guitar helps.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This morning, I found another one of my lame concoctions in response to some old thread, "What notes to play with those m7b5 chords.
Instead of trying to hear some serious Jazz opuses with my big but non-productive ears, I made a chord progression out of various m7b5 chords, and played the bass notes (using the keyboard) on Beat 1 by using five different (chord) notes for my TB colleagues to listen and figure out on their own which bass note sounds "better".

Here is the sheet.

Here is a sound clip with just the drums, bass (synth) and keyboard harmony.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=7b5c8e1f5c3a6137320213da30c5e588

The next sound clip is with added rhythm guitar (played by me on Jazz Bass )

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=7b5c8e1f5c3a6137320213da30c5e588

And the last soundclip of that "strange chord" progression is with some added lame "tune".

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=7b5c8e1f5c3a6137320213da30c5e588

N.B. Please note that I've used 5 different bass notes on Beat 1; therefore, it sounds weird due to a "handicapped" measure count.

 

[Two-Spirit]

C#m7b5 to F#

I've got a few phrases I employ when we play those, primarily using the chord tones as that works but what else can I do?

Bm-5 and E both have G# So go B G# E, come to think of it thats an E major arpeggio. Being able to strum chords on a guitar helps.[/QUOTE]
Just realized my mistake, i was thinking of a diminished 7, sorry. BDE, l'm low tech I have to work these things out sometimes, I'm more likely to play pedal tones on stuff like that.

 

[Gio Orfitinho]

igure out the bass rhythmic notes that could match my drum pattern, and the MOOD of that chord progression. Pla

But what about WINDOWS?

Press "Alt"-key, hold it and press "0248" on the number pad, release Alt-key.
ø

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Press "Alt"-key, hold it and press "0248" on the number pad, release Alt-key.
ø

WOW! It worked.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Not sure where you get the idea that the "'half diminished' nomenclature...implies these chords are somehow related to, or derived from, full diminished chords."

Common sense and semantics maybe?

I suppose I get why some people find ø easier to read than min7b5 (or -7b5). But to claim that it's easier to comprehend necessitates not only more background than is contained in a lead sheet -- e.g., you won't pick up the notion that "half diminished 7 chords are naturally occurring and diatonic" just by playing tunes that contain them -- but it also necessitates that you shut down the inquisitive part of your brain that, when presented with the concept of a half diminished 7th chord, wants to know "which half?"

 

[Mushroo]

For what it's worth, when I was in the music publishing biz, my editor was vehemently opposed to what he called "lucky charms" chord symbols. We were required to write "Maj" instead of "△", "dim7" instead of "o", "min7b5" instead of "ø", "aug" instead of "+" and so forth.

 

[mambo4]

editor was vehemently opposed to what he called "lucky charms" chord symbols.

But , if we were able to communicate clearly unambiguously, these threads would only
be one page each.

 

[Mushroo]

But , if we were able to communicate clearly unambiguously, these threads would only
be one page each.

C3P0 had some good advice: "I suggest a new strategy. Let the wookie win."

 

[mambo4]

I found another one of my lame concoctions in response to some old thread,

I think in practice you rarely see a string of m7b5 chords in thew wild. I would even wager that most of those m7b5 chords are not functionally behaving as such, but more like inversions or alterations of some less obscure chord.
vii m7b5 contains the R35 ii triad , the R,3 notes of the vi,
and the tritone can imply altered V7 or bII7...many possibilities

 

[Wasnex]

Common sense and semantics maybe?

I suppose I get why some people find ø easier to read than min7b5 (or -7b5). But to claim that it's easier to comprehend necessitates not only more background than is contained in a lead sheet -- e.g., you won't pick up the notion that "half diminished 7 chords are naturally occurring and diatonic" just by playing tunes that contain them -- but it also necessitates that you shut down the inquisitive part of your brain that, when presented with the concept of a half diminished 7th chord, wants to know "which half?"

By comprehend I don't mean understand the interval structure, I mean see the symbol and comprehend it's meaning. I.E. ø7 is a bit less to unpack once you form the mental link than min7b5. Again...at my level of experience it makes little difference when reading.

In my case it wasn't a matter of picking up...I was taught the structure and function of half diminished 7 chords in a formal setting; so there was no confusion. Despite my classical theory education, I needed help learning to read jazz chord notation, but I immediately understood ø7 with no explanation. I think you need to accept that chord notation is intended to be shorthand so there is intent for the symbols to be efficient. For this reason, I personally prefer the "lucky charms" but as I age and my eyesight dims, maybe I will change my mind.

As I mentioned previously, the notation of Maj and min 6 chords are far more problematic for someone trying to figure out jazz notation without assistance. How do propose they should be notated so they are intuitive?