How to approach m7b5 chords?

[Bob_Ross]

(Note: All the below presumes legible calligraphy.)

I don't deny that ø7 is quicker to read/parse than min7b5 or -7b5 the first time you ever encounter it. But, as you astutely point out, chord symbols are shorthand; once one becomes familiar with the symbology, you don't need to "read" the chord symbols because you recognize them as objects.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the notation of Maj and min 6 chords are far more problematic for someone trying to figure out jazz notation without assistance." What's un-intuitive about C6, or Cmaj6, or Cmin6?

 

[Wasnex]

(Note: All the below presumes legible calligraphy.)

I don't deny that ø7 is quicker to read/parse than min7b5 or -7b5 the first time you ever encounter it. But, as you astutely point out, chord symbols are shorthand; once one becomes familiar with the symbology, you don't need to "read" the chord symbols because you recognize them as objects.

Very well said...

I'm not sure what you mean by "the notation of Maj and min 6 chords are far more problematic for someone trying to figure out jazz notation without assistance." What's un-intuitive about C6, or Cmaj6, or Cmin6?

What are the intervals and how are they intuitive based upon the symbols?

 

[Bob_Ross]

What are the intervals and how are they intuitive based upon the symbols?

If -- and I'll grant this might be a very big "if" -- one understands what basic chord symbols mean...e.g., you recognize that the chord symbol "C" refers to a C major triad and not just some isolated alphanumeric C note hovering above the staff, and that you know the intervallic construction of a C major triad ...then it strikes me as remarkably intuitive to presume that a "C6" or "Cmaj6" is a C major triad with the addition of the 6th scale degree. What else could it be?

And why would that be less intuitive then something called a "half-diminished seventh chord"?

 

[Wasnex]

If -- and I'll grant this might be a very big "if" -- one understands what basic chord symbols mean...e.g., you recognize that the chord symbol "C" refers to a C major triad and not just some isolated alphanumeric C note hovering above the staff, and that you know the intervallic construction of a C major triad ...then it strikes me as remarkably intuitive to presume that a "C6" or "Cmaj6" is a C major triad with the addition of the 6th scale degree. What else could it be?

And why would that be less intuitive then something called a "half-diminished seventh chord"?

Maybe it's just me, but when I was first exposed to these chords I thought the min in Cmin6 applied to the 6th.

I have already explained why the half-diminished chord symbol was intuitive for me. My three semesters of classical theory classes covered diatonic triads, 7 chords, and augmented 6s (German, French, Italian), so ø7 made perfect sense.

I correctly interpreted C6 and CMaj6, but incorrectly assumed Cmin6 had an Ab...unfortunately I practiced this incorrectly for awhile, so it was a bit challenging to unlearn.

The other non-intuitive aspect of 6 chords that comes to mind is whether they are functioning in root position or inversions of -7 or ø7 chords. There...we are kinda back on topic.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think in practice you rarely see a string of m7b5 chords in thew wild. I would even wager that most of those m7b5 chords are not functionally behaving as such, but more like inversions or alterations of some less obscure chord.
vii m7b5 contains the R35 ii triad , the R,3 notes of the vi,
and the tritone can imply altered V7 or bII7...many possibilities

Yes, I have not encounter a "string of m7b5 chords". My idea was to hear(!) (not to see on the sheet) those chords with various bass notes in some rotational sequence. And I've found my "favorite" bass note with the m7b5 chord (in that particular harmonic environment.)

On the other hand, one of our TB members proposed the A minor tonality for my previous "min7b5" example.

I would have never thought about it.

 

[BassChuck]

It's a beautiful chord; a cornucopia of leading tones that can take you many places. One of the best tools. When playing standards in small groups, be mindful that the b5 is often the melody note (Autumn Leaves is a good example), so you might want to avoid that when the head is being played.
I prefer the notation m7b5 if for no other reason that clarity. The 9th is kinda rare except in slow orchestral music (check out the theme of 'Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis, you can't miss that 9-8 suspension).

 

[LordRyan]

The jazz standard "On Green Dolphin Street" in the key of C is a good example that employs ii-V and ii-V-I progressions with some m7b5 chords.

In the first chorus the ii-V-I changes are Dm7-G7-CMa7, Fm7-Bb7-EMa7, and Dm7b5-G7#9 back to CMa7 at the head. In this case the Dm7b5-G7#9 functions as a ii-V with altered notes in the key of C.

In the second chorus the progression goes Dm7-Bm7b5-E7-Am11 and descends to Am/G, Am/F#, F7, and then a couple of ii-V's Em11-A7 and Dm7-G7 and maybe a quick Db9#11 back to CMa7. In this case the Bm7b5 works as an alternate for the dominant seventh G7 leading to Am instead of C.

The m7b5 most often functions as a predominant ii chord in a minor key as it does here with Bm7b5 and E7 as a ii-V leading briefly to the key of Am before working it's way through ii-V's back to the tonic C.

If you only have to fill two beats on the m7b5 you could play quarter notes 1 descending to b5 and for the V chord 1 ascending to b5. Or eighth notes starting on the b5 descending to 3, 1, 7 and on the V chord ascending 3, 5, 7, b9 to the root of the minor I chord. To fill four beats on the m7b5 you could do eighth notes ascending 1, 3, b5, 7 then descend from the root an octave up to 7, b5, and 3.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Dirt simple example: The V and vii (m7b5) are both dominant chords and as such they like to move to the tonic chord. If the V is a V7 it wants to get there right now. The m7b5 wants to resolve, but, is in no hurry to do so. We take advantage of this and use the m7b5 chord as a movement chord, like in a turn-a-round vii-iii-vi-ii-V7-I.

The V7 wants to resolve right now and the m7b5 is in no hurry and is often used as a move - or lead to - somewhere chord.

 

[Pacman]

Dirt simple example: The V and vii (m7b5) are both dominant chords and as such they like to move to the tonic chord. If the V is a V7 it wants to get there right now. The m7b5 wants to resolve, but, is in no hurry to do so. We take advantage of this and use the m7b5 chord as a movement chord, like in a turn-a-round vii-iii-vi-ii-V7-I.

The V7 wants to resolve right now and the m7b5 is in no hurry and is often used as a move - or lead to - somewhere chord.

Incorrect. The V is a dominant chord, but the vii is a Min7(b5) chord. V wants to resolve to I, but the Min7(b5) does not. Most often (as stated in this thread) a Min7(b5) is functioning as a ii chord in a minor ii-V-i. No dominant function there at all.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I don't see just a chord - as some kind of "skeleton". I need to have more Aural Information about it!

Last night, I tried some "variations" of that Amin7b5 chord that sounded good to me.
As an amateur(!) musician, I have my layers of those chord variations.
The first layer - it's those regular chord inversions.
(Plus, the voicing of those chords on the piano/keyboard).
The second layer - two chord notes, plus at least one diatonic scale note.
My third layer - one chord note, plus at least two diatonic scale notes.
The fourth layer - some incomplete but diatonic chord structures, etc...

An example.
Amin7b5 = A C Eb G notes.
I can clearly see the C minor chord - C Eb G; therefore, let's add Bb note (as some "tension"/embellishment note).
We have the Cmin7 chord, plus its inversions.

(N.B. In this case, I made my choice of Bb - the diatonic note of G minor scale - to be used in my vamping of Amin7b5.)

Next.
The same notes -A C Eb G, could be easily (mis)interpreted by an amateur musician (me - WUTP) as some inversion of F7(9); therefore, I can try to add the F note and listen how it sounds with Amin7b5.
Let's use the following construction/inversion of that F7 chord (going up) as C (Eb) F A.
And so on...

Some incomplete "chord structures" made up of diatonic notes as (going up) Bb C G, or A Bb Eb F, and so on...

In short. I have hundreds of that Amin7b5 chord variation choices.
Now, I just need to "figure out" when and how to use those variations.
It's like, you have one chord but several melody notes.
Why don't me - a "pure" amateur musician (who cannot afford that "excellent" but seriously expensive Berklee College of Music ) - try to "melodify" my Amin7b5 chord variations - NOT SOLO/SOLOING (it's not given to me!)?

In the following soundclip, I've tried to show my "aural vision" of those Amin7b5 chord variations (sometimes, arpeggiated) on the piano/keyboard.
I'm an amateur bass player and a "pre-amateur" and extremely-beginner keyboard(ist) but the sound effects from DAW helped me.

It's a long "keyboard noodling". Around 1:14, I've added some Synth bass (sorry for it but it's faster and "cheaper") to emphasize that Bb note with Amin7b5.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=702296124364c56cf036989fbcc053a3

P.S. I'm just amazed how DAW could make my simple notes sound a little bit more interesting.
Technology!

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Incorrect. The V is a dominant chord, but the vii is a Min7(b5) chord. V wants to resolve to I, but the Min7(b5) does not. Most often (as stated in this thread) a Min7(b5) is functioning as a ii chord in a minor ii-V-i. No dominant function there at all.

In a minor progression - yes. However, way back in the dark ages I was taught that a Major progression will have:

Two sub-dominant chords; the 2 and 4. And these chords want to go to a dominant chord.
Two dominant chords, the V and vii. And these chords want to go to the tonic I chord.

Granted minor is different.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Dichotomy of that half-diminished seventh chord.
Dominant implies the 5th scale degree and Dom7 contains a tritone (leading tone) interval.
A half dim 7th chord also has that tritone with the leading tone.
The notes of the Dom7 and m7b5 chords are very similar; therefore, the functionality of both chords could be similar.
B dim m7th as an embellishing chord for G7.

 

[SteveCS]

I don't see just a chord - as some kind of "skeleton". I need to have more Aural Information about it!

Last night, I tried some "variations" of that Amin7b5 chord that sounded good to me.
As an amateur(!) musician, I have my layers of those chord variations.
The first layer - it's those regular chord inversions.
(Plus, the voicing of those chords on the piano/keyboard).
The second layer - two chord notes, plus at least one diatonic scale note.
My third layer - one chord note, plus at least two diatonic scale notes.
The fourth layer - some incomplete but diatonic chord structures, etc...

An example.
Amin7b5 = A C Eb G notes.
I can clearly see the C minor chord - C Eb G; therefore, let's add Bb note (as some "tension"/embellishment note).
We have the Cmin7 chord, plus its inversions.

(N.B. In this case, I made my choice of Bb - the diatonic note of G minor scale - to be used in my vamping of Amin7b5.)

Next.
The same notes -A C Eb G, could be easily (mis)interpreted by an amateur musician (me - WUTP) as some inversion of F7(9); therefore, I can try to add the F note and listen how it sounds with Amin7b5.
Let's use the following construction/inversion of that F7 chord (going up) as C (Eb) F A.
And so on...

Some incomplete "chord structures" made up of diatonic notes as (going up) Bb C G, or A Bb Eb F, and so on...

In short. I have hundreds of that Amin7b5 chord variation choices.
Now, I just need to "figure out" when and how to use those variations.
It's like, you have one chord but several melody notes.
Why don't me - a "pure" amateur musician (who cannot afford that "excellent" but seriously expensive Berklee College of Music ) - try to "melodify" my Amin7b5 chord variations - NOT SOLO/SOLOING (it's not given to me!)?

In the following soundclip, I've tried to show my "aural vision" of those Amin7b5 chord variations (sometimes, arpeggiated) on the piano/keyboard.
I'm an amateur bass player and a "pre-amateur" and extremely-beginner keyboard(ist) but the sound effects from DAW helped me.

It's a long "keyboard noodling". Around 1:14, I've added some Synth bass (sorry for it but it's faster and "cheaper") to emphasize that Bb note with Amin7b5.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=702296124364c56cf036989fbcc053a3

P.S. I'm just amazed how DAW could make my simple notes sound a little bit more interesting.
Technology!

View attachment 3005693

So I took that mp3 (thanks WUTP) and added a rough outline of bass - mainly around the Cm centre. Apologies for the rename, but it seems resonable given that its the internet where no-one really knows anyone...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So I took that mp3 (thanks WUTP) and added a rough outline of bass - mainly around the Cm centre. Apologies for the rename, but it seems resonable given that its the internet where no-one really knows anyone...

Steve,
You are a very good musician, Bass player, arranger, with excellent studio engineer skills.
You can take a lame soundtrack of some chord variation and make it sound good.
I am impressed!

 

[SteveCS]

Incorrect. The V is a dominant chord, but the vii is a Min7(b5) chord. V wants to resolve to I, but the Min7(b5) does not. Most often (as stated in this thread) a Min7(b5) is functioning as a ii chord in a minor ii-V-i. No dominant function there at all.

Sorry, but I'm with @MalcolmAmos here - the vii° chord has a very much dominant function. The basic fact of it being built on the leading tone gives an inevitable pull to I l. Add in the fact that, as pointed out by @Whousedtoplay, the tritone is the same as in V7, its most powerful resolution is also the same - half-steps to mediant and root.

Steve,
You are a very good musician, Bass player, arranger, with excellent studio engineer skills.
You can take a lame soundtrack of some chord variation and make it sound good.
I am impressed!

Thanks for your kind words, but it's really just a few bass notes...

 

[Pacman]

Sorry, but I'm with @MalcolmAmos here - the vii° chord has a very much dominant function. The basic fact of it being built on the leading tone gives an inevitable pull to I l. Add in the fact that, as pointed out by @Whousedtoplay, the tritone is the same as in V7, its most powerful resolution is also the same - half-steps to mediant and root.

I guess I can't argue with what you hear, but a m7(b5) chord (to my ears) always pulls to the V. Virtually always it's functioning as a minor ii in a ii-V. I find the resolution of vii to I pretty weak.

 

[SteveCS]

I guess I can't argue with what you hear, but a m7(b5) chord (to my ears) always pulls to the V. Virtually always it's functioning as a minor ii in a ii-V. I find the resolution of vii to I pretty weak.

Chords can do all sorts of things beyond the primary function - sometimes they don't have to 'go' anywhere and just sounding nice is enough...

 

[MalcolmAmos]

My music is 90% major so I don't think of the m7b5 as a ii. I think major first and then change when the song tells me its in a minor key. And that seldom happens.

 

[mambo4]

Since I've mostly hit these chords in Latin / Tiki music,
And I'm almost always doing a root-5 thing,
That flat 5th sounds like a mistake more often than not.
So, If I'm 100% honest my usual approach to m7b5 is:
just play roots / octaves, walk to the next chord in steps or half steps.
I porbably hit some of other chord tones on the way,
but I'm not really thinking about it -just listening.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Since I've mostly hit these chords in Latin / Tiki music,
And I'm almost always doing a root-5 thing,
That flat 5th sounds like a mistake more often than not.
So, If I'm 100% honest my usual approach to m7b5 is:
just play roots / octaves, walk to the next chord in steps or half steps.
I porbably hit some of other chord tones on the way,
but I'm not really thinking about it -just listening.

What’s wrong with b3 or b7, or b5?
They are just perfect for that chord.