Double Bass How to approach many runs

[Stuart.C]

Hi,

My current orchestra cycle is doing some challenging music:
Weber - Jubilee Overture
Mendelssohn - Symphony #5

There are lots of different fast runs in both.

I am at the figure out fingering stage.

My question is what is the best approach to getting all the runs up to tempo.

I am thinking either work up 1 then move to next and so on.
or set the metronome slow and go through each run of the piece, and try to bring them all up at the same time.

any thoughts will be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Mark_T]

I would suggest a little of both - if you're short on time you need to be building familiarity with all of them, but you can pick a few to focus on each practice session. I also discovered a few years ago that it's really important to practice the exits of runs (ie, the last few notes into whatever follows) as much or more than the beginnings of them.

I think this is true for two reasons: first, it's to offset the natural bias I have towards focusing on the starts; and second, I think by the time I get to the end of a run, I'm often feeling a bit wobbly and desperate, so having those exits dialed is important because you're less stable and less "on" by the time you get there.

PS, I also spend concert week focusing more on precision than speed - at that point it feels too late to build speed but reinforcing correct notes and fingerings still seems to pay off.

 

[AGCurry]

We are performing the Nutcracker 10 days from now. From the "Marche":

Tempo is too fast for me to play cleanly, the lower-string sequences particularly so. Measures 8 and 16 are no problem.
I would rather play important notes properly than play all of the notes poorly, so I edited the runs, eliminating the last 8th note in the first 3 measures of each.
It works for me, it's still musical, and my section mates seem to approve.

If there were more time, I'd be able to practice "the ink" and do alright, but ... there's never enough time.

 

[Wasnex]

I prefer to identify technical sections and then cycle through them.

The approach is to slow the music down and try to work it up incrementally. First work out the fingering (obviously). Sometimes the fingering may need to change when the tempo increases beyond a certain point.

Once you settle on a fingering and start cycling through the sections, it's one step back and two steps forward. What do I mean? Each time you come to a section, you slow down a bit compared to the tempo you ended the section on the previous cycle. The goal is to work the section up a bit faster than the last cycle before you move on.

The way you know it's time to move on is when you hit the wall. Sometimes you hit the wall before you are able to gain any additional speed. You may sometimes hit the wall and then bounce back a bit, meaning you have to slow down to play to play the passage.

IMHO it's best to move on before you get too frustrated. Why? I believe the frustration can lead to mental locks that get in the way of task performance.

One you feel a section is sufficiently mastered, drop it out of the cycle, so you can focus on the sections that still need work. However, IME mastery tends to fade with time. So, on the next practice session I suggest playing through all of the passages to make sure you still have everything mastered. Chances are you will add some of the previously mastered sections back int the cycle.

Mastering all sections may take several practice sessions...or in some instances you may not achieve mastery before the performance. I have noted this an multiple occasions: Sometimes mastery comes after the performance and a bit of time has passed where you have not even worked on the problem section. Before turning the music in, I like to go back and review sections I couldn't master. Sometimes I find that I can easily play the section.

This suggests two possibilities:
1. It supports my idea of a mental lock. In other words, perhaps I actually had the section mastered but something in my mental process was getting in the way of performance.
2. When you set a problem aside, your brain continues working on it subconsciously. Perhaps it's just a matter of neural connections needing to set, or perhaps there is a lot more going on subconsciously than most of us know about. FYI, it's estimated that >90% of our mental process is subconscious.

My approach may be the opposite of what works for you. We are all different. So experiment and figure out what works for you.

 

[bass player 53]

If you’re starting out looking for
fingerings, you can try finding them
from the NY Philharmonic’s Digital
Archives.

 

[Stuart.C]

That fingering archive is super cool, they don't have Mendelssohn 5th, but still that is great resource.

Thanks for the advice, I do have a few months to get this stuff under my fingers.
I am going to try getting though each run (from beginning to end) at a slow click. then focus more on the ones I find most changeling.
Then speed up.
I have had a bad habit of not really working on the endings of runs and pieces too, so I'll need to spend more time there this time.

I just wish the conductor told us exactly what we'll be working on, before the day of rehearsal

 

[jj.833]

I think the advice on slow metronome is golden, but I wouldn't start with the metronome until I have fingerings clear and the melodies in my ear.

I also found that I can't really practise too many phrases at one time. I play the phrase once or twice; then ask myself "Do I know what and how to do to get better? or Can I figure out what is wrong?" If no, then my ability to get better is spent for the moment, and I am more effective doing something else for a while.

 

[AGCurry]

I just wish the conductor told us exactly what we'll be working on, before the day of rehearsal

My current orchestra is the FIRST one I've been in where our director does exactly this. I appreciate it greatly. You might suggest it to him/her.

 

[Contrabenjista]

Good advice. To add: slowing down is helpful, but we also play differently slow vs fast.

Another approach: playing the run in 2 note chunks, where we we hold every other note as slow as we need, and then play the next note and the transition to the next note at full speed. Repeat starting on the alternate note. Then repeat with 3 note chunks, then 4 note chunks etc.

This way you're working at your destination speed for every note (and the movement between each note), while still giving yourself all the time in the world to learn.

 

[koricancowboy]

I find practice rhythm patterns invaluable as is “add a note” in learning fast technical patterns. Of course slow metronome practice is helpful too but I truly think that utilizing the two methods above are more helpful because they allow you to keep some semblance of tempo. Oh and practice shifts in isolation. It’s all great until you leave your current position for new one.

 

[LouisF]

here are some tips:

 

[Stuart.C]

here are some tips

The Jason H made me feel better about feeling discouraged; and the tip about using the middle of the bow is gold.

Last rehearsal was really bad, I just stopped and ate my humble pie while counting bars.
(we worked on the 4th movement, I spent all my time on the first)

But I came to a conclusion about how I need to tackle this:
Building up all the runs in a practise session is way too much for me. ( I am not that fast a reader)
I only stand a chance if I have them basically memorized, and I can only really do that by focusing on 1 at a time.

reminds me of the cheesy saying:
How do you eat an elephant ... one bite at a time.

If I don't get them all down, I am not above just standing there and looking lost.

 

[LouisF]

When one of the community orchestras I perform with was on a search for a music director, we had a guest conductor who decided to take the Mendelssohn Reformation at tempi that would have made Toscannini tremble. The runs were more than a challenge: for some of us old timers with arthritis etc they were physically impossible - and painful. It was also frustrating, because at a reasonable tempo, it's pretty playable. Some of us discussed not playing the concert. Ultimately, we cheated: sometimes we would play only the first two of 4 8ths or 16th; or only the first beat of a group. It was better than "standing there and looking lost" and frankly, the guy -- who did not get the job -- never knew the difference. I've played the symphony 3 or 4 times and that was the only time the symphony "defeated" me. A few clicks on the metronome make all the difference in the world.

 

[Pietsch]

Commit fast runs to muscular memory by drilling them in short practice sessions several times per day. When practicing be patient, relaxed, and enjoy yourself. Do the best you can. Fake the portions you can't manage with your bow matching the other players.

 

[Paps]

This is where scale practice shows it worth. Not that I have time for it, but I'd imagine regular practice would leave such runs almost instinctive.

 

[Wasnex]

This is where scale practice shows it worth. Not that I have time for it, but I'd imagine regular practice would leave such runs almost instinctive.

Scales are definitely helpful, but runs don't always consist of pure scales. Runs may be based on modes or they may have interval skips, or they may change directions multiple times.

 

[Stuart.C]

I played the concert this past week-end.

And it was ... not terrible. I got off track in 2 sections but found my back after a few bars, and in general hit all the important bass parts and even nailed a few of the runs.

In the last few weeks I tried a different strategy, I had all the runs in muscle memory and could play them reasonably well at a slower tempo, but realized I was simply not going to get up to tempo cleanly for all of them.
So I cranked the metronome up a little past full tempo and practised just flailing through them, trying to focus on the down beats and getting to the quarter note sections on time.
It was not pretty, but with this piece the intro, choral and ending are all people really remember.

It did renew my awe for pro players, and the vast gulf that separates us.

 

[AGCurry]

I played the concert this past week-end.

And it was ... not terrible. I got off track in 2 sections but found my back after a few bars, and in general hit all the important bass parts and even nailed a few of the runs.

In the last few weeks I tried a different strategy, I had all the runs in muscle memory and could play them reasonably well at a slower tempo, but realized I was simply not going to get up to tempo cleanly for all of them.
So I cranked the metronome up a little past full tempo and practised just flailing through them, trying to focus on the down beats and getting to the quarter note sections on time.
It was not pretty, but with this piece the intro, choral and ending are all people really remember.

It did renew my awe for pro players, and the vast gulf that separates us.

Yes. We'll be playing the Grand Canyon Suite next concert. Movement 5 ("Cloudburst") has a section which will probably be familiar to the seasoned players; it's fast, freaking loud, and contains some jumps which do not lie easily under the fingers. When I go to rehearsals, I hear all the low-voiced instruments practicing the passage before rehearsal starts. I've been shedding it for weeks, but there is no way I'll play it with any kind of precision. I've made the decision to simply not play those 16th-note runs. Any other decision would be fraudulent.

 

[LouisF]

You could play the 1rst and 3rd of the 16th note runs -- I've taken that way out several times on different passages!

 

[neilG]

Yes. We'll be playing the Grand Canyon Suite next concert. Movement 5 ("Cloudburst") has a section which will probably be familiar to the seasoned players; it's fast, freaking loud, and contains some jumps which do not lie easily under the fingers. When I go to rehearsals, I hear all the low-voiced instruments practicing the passage before rehearsal starts. I've been shedding it for weeks, but there is no way I'll play it with any kind of precision. I've made the decision to simply not play those 16th-note runs. Any other decision would be fraudulent.
View attachment 7434815

Sorry, but that fingering for the 1st measure of the third line isn't helping your problem. Go to 1 on the A#, 4 on the G, 2 on F#, 1 on the F dotted 8th.