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Double Bass How to approach Petracchi - Simplified Higher Technique

C

clodhopper

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Jun 6, 2011
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#1
I'm returning to the Double Bass after a break of a number of years and am slowly working through Simandl. However, I have decided that I want to tackle thumb position as soon as possible. I have purchased Petracchi - Simplified Higher Technique after reading some recommendations.
However, the exercises all start at the D on the G string which is not encouraging. This is difficult strength and position wise and I have as a result put the book down and been rather discouraged from playing in thumb position.
I have read that this book is not well ordered and that it's better to start from exercise 4, though this again starts on D on G.
So, a bit confused and in need of some guidance and encouragement, thanks.
 
#2
Ditch that! Get the Storch Hrabe studies Vol.1 and a metronome. Start at page 1 and work methodically and slowly through the book. If you survive the frist couple of these then get some easy(ish) solo pieces in a single volume. Yorke Edition and Shirmer both have good colections in this range.

To set things in perspective, I did exactly the same thing. I was a professional player until 2004 (co principal in the Athens Camerata Chamber Orchestra), then I got work writing music for video games so I gave up the bass totally for 4 years. Then the bottom fell out of the video game market here and I had to get my chops back so I could play again. It took 18 months to go from zero to my best playing level ever. I just used my experience to avoid all the pitfalls most college students fall into. I was more focused and strict about my practice regime and reportory and preparation for auditions. I'm now sub-principal in the National Opera.

Good luck to you my Friend!
FC
 
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#3
yes - I have the same thing. I never put my thumb on the D of G-string. Petracchi is however not the only book. Also in Chuck Sher's 'Improviser's Bass Method' and Rufus Reid's 'Evolving Upward Bass Book II' are thumb exercises. In reid's exercises the pinky is on the D of G-string etc.

Ypou can get these books via for free via the net.
 
#4
Other good books at the Storch-Hrabe level are Sturm 110 Studies Vol 1, Slama 66 Studies in All Keys, and Lee 12 Studies, all published by IMC and not expensive. They are all at a manageable level.

IMO it is better to work to a high quality at this level, with phrasing and dynamics, and gradually add two then three octave scales and arpeggios as a way into thumb position.

Cheers.....
DP
 
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#5
However, the exercises all start at the D on the G string which is not encouraging. This is difficult strength and position wise and I have as a result put the book down and been rather discouraged from playing in thumb position.
I have read that this book is not well ordered and that it's better to start from exercise 4, though this again starts on D on G.
So, a bit confused and in need of some guidance and encouragement, thanks.[/QUOTE]

In my thumb position book, I started on G. To me, it makes a lot more practical sense.
Tom Gale
 
#6
Petracchi is the best thumb position method. The meat of the book is the fingering concepts. Once you do a few of the exercises and get the fingering concepts, then it is just a book of great exercises - I find myself returning to a few of them, but it is not a comprehensive method like Simandl/Billie/Rabbath/Nanny, etc.
It is far better than Simandl's book II, however. The other books mentioned are nice enough etudes, but are not as revolutionary for the upper positions.

Starting on the D on the G string is part of the genius of the system - to wean you off of harmonics and diatonic positions right away, then you can put a "break" between standard position and thumb pos. wherever it makes sense in the line - not at G by default.

The basic idea is by condensing your thumb position to chromatic and semi-chromatic they are more solid and thus more mobile.
 
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#7
I bought Petracchi's book, looked at it and put it on the shelf. There's nothing new here, and the exercises, IMO, are mind-crushingly boring. I think you are better served playing something like Simandl Book II with the same sort of "modernized" fingering. Any teacher who is using Simandl with the fingerings in the book is doing their student a disservice. Again, IMNSHO.
 
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#8
Petracchi’s book is rather helpful. Don’t worry about starting on the D for all of the exercises. Just change the key (and the book mentions that you should do in all keys). Do it in F major or G major at first. It is all a simple pattern and shouldn’t be hard to transpose without writing it out as long as you have an ear for the major scale. Also don’t leave your hand in right angles. Also, don’t leave your hand as if every finger is floating above the note, this will destroy your hand. I’ve studied with him and he is a big believer in doing these exercises in multiple keys and with multiple bowings.
 
#10
Actually, I'm getting more into it. I've started working on exercise 4 which is a basic exercise to get the 3 fingerings (chromatic, semi-chromatic and diatonic) together on the G string starting at D. It's just an exercise but I can see the value of it. It has also encouraged a change of stance so that the back of the neck rests on my shoulder, which feels more stable. Also, thumb position on D of the G is not so impossible. However, I'm unsure of where to take this as it would be nice to have musical exercises to use these fingerings. Also, I presume I should apply these fingerings to the D and A strings as well - probably not the E string I'm thinking.
I can see the value of the approach but the book seems to be somewhat incomplete in that it gives you the concept but kind of leaves you dangling.
 
#12
Les Fret said:
What do mean by this? do you mean not spreading out your fingers too much?

BTW what do you think of the Nanny etude-caprices? My teacher wants me to study them. I think they are a challenge.
Click to expand...

I mean that you shouldn’t hold your hand in a stretched position. For example, in the book it shows the “diatonic” position. If you hold your hand in this position for extended periods of time you can damage your hand, especially when applying strength. I have seen people (and even myself) practice this by keeping all the fingers in a held position where I can lower my finger slightly and be pressing a note in an attempt to master these exercises. Also, it’s ok to let your fingers point to the bridge when holding notes. No sense in forcing the hand into a unnatural position.

As for the Nanny, I have no experience with it. The closest I have experienced with his work is the Dragonetti concerto.
 
#13
When I wrote my half of a book on the thumb positions, I started with the thumb on the G harmonic and wrote a page of exercises with the fingers 1/2 step apart - G - thumb, G# 1, A 2 and A# 3. I did this to remove any strain from the fingers being used in this position for the first time. I called it the "First Hand Position". I then had a full page of exercises using this hand position. Then, on the next page, there is Etude #1 with uses this position combined with the closed hand (1,2,4 - Simandl) and the open hand (1,2,3,4.) Open hand was covered in the first half of the book.
Next page was the 2nd Hand Position - G T, A 1, A# 2, and B - 3. A page of exercises using this more open hand position followed by a full page Etude #2 using this hand position and the open and closed hand positions as before.
Next was the 3rd Hand Position - G T, A 1, B 2, and C 3. and Etude 3. Same format.
The next 11 pages are combinations of the 3 hand positions and 6 more Etudes using everything. All the Hand Position exercises and Etudes also include the using of the thumb on the D string starting on the D harmonic. Makes sense to me.
Tom Gale
 
#14
Tom Gale said:
When I wrote my half of a book on the thumb positions, I started with the thumb on the G harmonic and wrote a page of exercises with the fingers 1/2 step apart - G - thumb, G# 1, A 2 and A# 3. I did this to remove any strain from the fingers being used in this position for the first time. I called it the "First Hand Position". I then had a full page of exercises using this hand position. Then, on the next page, there is Etude #1 with uses this position combined with the closed hand (1,2,4 - Simandl) and the open hand (1,2,3,4.) Open hand was covered in the first half of the book.
Next page was the 2nd Hand Position - G T, A 1, A# 2, and B - 3. A page of exercises using this more open hand position followed by a full page Etude #2 using this hand position and the open and closed hand positions as before.
Next was the 3rd Hand Position - G T, A 1, B 2, and C 3. and Etude 3. Same format.
The next 11 pages are combinations of the 3 hand positions and 6 more Etudes using everything. All the Hand Position exercises and Etudes also include the using of the thumb on the D string starting on the D harmonic. Makes sense to me.
Tom Gale
Click to expand...

So this is the same as chromatic, semi-chromatic, and diatonic positions? If I were to translate from Petracchi I mean?
 
#17
The positions are just names. When I play I never think in terms of diatonic or semi-chromatic or whatever.
Also in the lower position I don't think in position names.
On double bass you mostly don't stay for very long in one position anyway.

When playing actual music you switch between so called chromatic, semi chromatic or diatonic constantly. So there is no real need to remember those names.
 
#18
I think that naming things in music is one of the most powerful learning tools we have. If you have no name for the different thumb positions, how would you know how to refine them? When playing actual music, one does indeed change between all these hand positions fluidly and often, but if you don't know them when formulating your fingerings, you may make choices that aren't advantageous, you might never play a passage in tune because you've never considered what spacing your fingers should have.
And I don't care what anyone says, noone automatically play in tune in thumb position so it's best to take the help you can get. One of my teachers told me every week "Any port in a storm."
 
#19
Petracchi figured out a stable, proven system. Don't use it if you don't want to, but it works and works well.
Mark Dresser turned me on to Petracchi - Dresser studied with him for a short period while he was studying with Fernando Grillo.
In the chromatic and semi-chromatic positions he gets you to think not just in half-steps but in major or minor thirds.
The first excercise outlines the 7 harmonic areas of the D major scale. It's stability also makes it an excellent fingering system for improvising.

Here is his student list:
Invalid Link Removed
 
#20
I should explain when I mentioned the 2nd half of the book being about the thumb positions, what the first half was. It introduces 'open hand' technique (starting on 1st finger on D (G string) and also 'pivoting' - that is increasing the range of any hand position without moving the thumb. This Part One lasts 5 pages. Then, as you start Part Two, you also start the 2nd half of the book which is the thumb positions. Both halfs go together - etc. to the end. Hope this makes it clearer.
Tom Gale
 

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