How to deal with horns behind vocalists

[bassdeal]

No real bass content. Moderator move if desired.

I did a sound job for a horn band (first time with this band) in a smallish indoor lounge performing mainly 60's pop, a bit of funk, and Motown. Nine-piece band including three lead vocalists and a three-piece horn section (trumpet, bone, sax/flute). The stage was quite tight and the vocalists stood in front of the ~1foot high stage and the horn section was directly behind them on the stage (mainly in front of the two main lead vocalists, one male and one female) standing ~5 feet behind them. The horn section had one mic (SM57) for flute solos (only about two for the entire show and muted otherwise). I had a terrible (AKA unsuccessful) time getting the monitors loud enough for the vocalists and to keep from amplifying the horns from the vocal mics resulting in things getting a bit loud.

The vocalists generally were right on their mics when singing and I did a lot of vocal chasing, bringing levels down for the vocalists not singing and up for the lead vocal. There was a significant amount of harmony vocals so many times I could not cut the harmony vocals much at all during these times. Mixer was an XR18 with vocal gains set at ~-18 at peak volume so it was not that I had an outrageously high gain setting bringing the horns in.

Monitors/FOH were quickly rung out before the 1st set (out of time) but a much more complete job was done between the first and second set which gave me a bit higher monitor level but still inadequate. Monitors were on the floor point right at the vocalists' heads (2 15" and 1 12" all on the same mix (vocals only) all 97 SPL rated). I feel physically they were placed appropriately (although I wish they could be higher but visuals you know).

My main question is in this configuration, how can I keep the horns from bleeding so much into the vocal mics? I feel I am missing something obvious :-/.

I hope this makes sense and thanks for reading.

 

[Guitalia]

If the horn players are inclined to be cooperative and have their music stands on stage, you could ask the trumpet and trombone to aim their horns at the stands and the sax to at least aim away from the vocal mics.

Or, if they're motivated to spend some money to enable them to fix the problem in the future, they could buy horn deflectors.

 

[JRA]

The stage was quite tight and the vocalists stood in front of the ~1foot high stage and the horn section was directly behind them on the stage....

some scenarios are just tough, but mitigating bleed per @Guitalia's suggestion is a good, proven start!

 

[bassdeal]

Thanks for the replies. Music stands could be a solution except the horn players would have to move back a bit to accommodate them squeezing them against the keyboardist who was pinned against the back wall. Possible though. Aiming the horns is a good idea.

I did some quick research before posting on the horn deflectors but what I found was they are more designed for the horn player to hear the actual sound out of the horn rather than blocking a significant amount of sound going forward. Then again, I did not research it extensively.

 

[pfschim]

I've seen plexiglass shields/deflectors for whole horn/brass sections, but that probably will not help you because of your tight stage situation.

 

[Groove Doctor]

If only a 1 ft stage, get the horns to set up offstage to one side of stage. Proximity is your first problem.

Direction is your second problem. Don't have them pointing at the mics, or at least be off-axis to the vocalists mics.

Any decent horn player will know that. The Horns and the BL should know NOT to set up like that again. Most issues with singers is too much stage volume, and turning up monitors only invites more problems into the equation.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Tight stage or not, rearrange the stage plot. It may not have the "look" but moving things around so the horns are not behind the vocals is the first step.

I was going to mention keeping the vocalist right on top of their mics but it sounds like they are.

Kind of like wanting to set the choir up in front of the drum set, something will have to move, I did not just make that one up!

 

[bassdeal]

I agree with everything you say. I observed this band before I took the job using basically the same arrangement but it was outdoors and the stage was much larger. They did not have any significant feedback issues but I did not know if they had any monitor issues. I talked to the BL before the job stating that I thought having the horns behind the vocalists could be a problem. I can't remember exactly what he said but it was something like this is the arrangement they always use. So I assumed it must have worked before so it will work again. I hate it when I don't trust my own instinct :-/.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

If I were the vocalist or any other musican for that matter the last thing I would want is a trumpet blasting me
in the ear from behind!

If the vocalist are saying the horns are too loud in their monitors, your kind of stuck at that point, turning their mics
up louder is not going to help,

 

[Wasnex]

Ideas to consider:

• The most effective change is with the stage plot. Overall, IMHO placing the horns directly behind the vocalists is a undesirable.
• Convincing the horns to play quieter could help. Some players can and will make adjustments. Many can't or won't.
• Blast shields could help. The horn players probably won't like them. Blast shields may encourage or help the horn players to play a bit quieter.
• Close mic'ing each horn and giving them a monitor can help. This does not mean you necessarily have to put all horns in the PA. Trumpet in particular tends to blow out rooms unless you have the rare player who can play high and relatively quiet. Many trumpet players refuse to believe this, but I have found some will back off if you give them a mic, even if it's a dummy. Part of the problem with trumpet is the frequency range is piercing and centered where our ears are very sensitive.
• Putting the horns on a riser and/or stepping the vocalist down in front of the stage could help. This will be most helpful with upstream players, because it aims much of their sound over the vocalists and their mics. It could potentially make matters worse with downstream players.
• Saxophone tends to radiate sound in all directions but it varies by frequency. The sound really only shoots straight out of the bell for the lowest notes. Sax is more likely to need a mic and the direction they face typically has less impact on what others here.
• Bone and trumpet shoot most of their sound straight out of the bell. Trumpet is more directional than bone. If possible, have bone and trumpet direct their sound away from the vocal mics to the greatest degree possible.
• Highly directional vocal mics will help. Dynamic over condenser is likely to help. Haven't tried it, but the sharp HF rolloff of a Shure KSM8 would probably help greedy. You could try rolling an LPF down on the vocal mics.

KSM8 Response:

 

[s0c9]

You may have to gate the vox pretty heavily.. to keep horn wash out.

 

[petermwright]

I did some quick research before posting on the horn deflectors but what I found was they are more designed for the horn player to hear the actual sound out of the horn rather than blocking a significant amount of sound going forward.

This.

In any case, the sound doesn't just come from the bell, it comes from all the other holes too (except the low notes).

 

[andruca]

How about OPTOGATE? Don't know if it'd be useful in your circumstance, but I've used it and I know they work. Sensitivity can be set so that the slightest distancing from the mic shuts it off. Real good for filtering out spurious noise whenever you're not singing.

Optogate Products

There are two versions we provide of the Optogate PB 05 series. Using automatic infrared sensors each unit will triggers on or off based on the set proximity of the user to the microphone. The Optogate PB 05 M offers the greatest elimination of feedback and the most versatility in microphone...

optogatemicswitch.com

 

[Geogio]

I say this jokingly but sometimes it's not a joke... put the horns in front of the singers to drown out the caterwauling.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

You may have to gate the vox pretty heavily.. to keep horn wash out.

Gating vocal mics is tricky, finding a threshold level that blocks the noise yet will open all the time
when singing.

The Audix OM7 vocal mic could help, with that mic the vocalist need to lips on the mic close. Actually in this case they need to be with any vocal mic.
With the vocalist lips on mic you can lower the input gain, doing that lowers the level of the background noise in relation to the vocal level.

 

[s0c9]

Gating vocal mics is tricky, finding a threshold level that blocks the noise yet will open all the time
when singing.

The Audix OM7 vocal mic could help, with that mic the vocalist need to lips on the mic close. Actually in this case they need to be with any vocal mic.
With the vocalist lips on mic you can lower the input gain, doing that lowers the level of the background noise in relation to the vocal level.

Mike, I agree 100%.. but if the other [primary] suggestion - move the horns - isn't happening, then one has to realistically look at gating the vocal mics.
Easy? No. But it IS a viable albeit tricky choice when that's all one has left to work with.

 

[Ostie]

I'm always amazed at how many vocalists have no idea how to work a mic. They either sing all leads and backups right into the proximity area and overpower everything, or they stand a foot away and keep asking to to turn them up.. Working a mic is part of stagecraft.

 

[FullumMusic]

I had a terrible (AKA unsuccessful) time getting the monitors loud enough for the vocalists and to keep from amplifying the horns from the vocal mics resulting in things getting a bit loud.

This suggest to me there might be a gain-staging issue on the mics too.
If you can't get the monitors loud enough without getting bleed from the horns in the vocal mic -> monitor chain, the vocal mics might be too hot. Those peaks at -18dB might be fine for a different situation or in isolation, but not ok in this situation. Gain should be just hot enough to get the vocals but not everything else (while still being high enough to have enough level in the mix without pushing the fader way past unity, obviously).

But like a few others have said, rearranging the stage plot would probably be the most effective fix before going down the gain tweaking rabbit-hole.

I wouldn't have the horns behind the vocalists (ie: in front of the vocal mic, facing the vocal mic.)
I'd put the horns to the side, even if it means the vocal mics are slightly off-center. I don't know how feasible it is on the small stage. But ideally don't have the horns facing the vocal mics.

Also, am i misunderstanding your description of the stage, or were the vocalists & there mics in front of the stage? That could mean they're also getting bleed from the FOH, if the mics are slightly out in front of the mains. Horn sounds coming direct from behind and then from side out of the mains will definitely cause a headache of bleed.

With the vocal mics more isolated from the bleed, you won't have to pull back the vocal mic gain as much.

 

[bassdeal]

Again thanks for all of the replies.

I did think about gating but there are times when the vocals are softer and no horns playing. Seems like a tricky situation to me, at least at my experience level.

Yes as many said, moving the horns away from the vocals is the most practical solution. I feel they could do that (maybe 2-levels on one side of the stage since the horizontal space was so tight) if they really tried. It might feel awkward at first.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

They cannot be behind the vocals period. It is physics, the horns will be louder on the mic than the vox and when you turn the vox up on the monitors you are actually bringing the brass section up. There are reflectors but they won't help much.

I cannot tell you how many times a singer with a super quiet voice and a ukulele that has no output wants to be right in front of a bashing drummmer. I tell them they cannot stay there or they won't hear anything on the monitors but the drums. There's no magic button to fix this on the board.