I use a Eastman bass, and a glasses bow form my school, and I'm really trying to get a crisp sound for regional experts. One piece is 120 beats equals a half note. Just looking for some advice! Thank you!
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Double Bass How to get a crisp sound when bowing quickly
- Thread starter GabrielVilla09
- Start date
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
- 950
- Disclosures
- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
Try out some nicer bows with real, fresh horse hair. Nothing fancy, but at least made of wood or carbon fiber. Right now you're trying to drive 200 mph in a golf cart.
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
- 950
- Disclosures
- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
Just go to a shop and try everything. Decide how much you're willing to spend and go from there.
Before you buy a bow, find a good player or teacher and let them play your gear. I've picked up Glasser bows now and then and with good technique they work, if not brilliantly.
- Apr 6, 2007
- 778
- 550
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Fishman Transducers, Aguilar Amplifiers, Ear Trumpet Labs
In addition to getting your gear sorted, think about your bow speed. Faster passages, whether bowed separately or slurred, tend to need less bow in order to be clear.
For me, the key to playing well fast, is playing well slowly. I would recommend slowing down the passage to 60bpm. When you can play it well there, bump up the tempo to 62bpm. Increase the tempo in 2 beat increments until you get to 140. As Jeremy said, watch your bow. When practicing slowly, use the same amount of bow that you would when it is up to tempo.
A new bow might be in order. There are some nice, inexpensive carbon fiber bows available. Maybe a used Finale.
A new bow might be in order. There are some nice, inexpensive carbon fiber bows available. Maybe a used Finale.
Nobody mentioned bow arm technique. Make sure you are weighting your bow arm properly.
In your original posting question, arm weight is to be prioritized over bow speed (80%/20%) ... do it the other way around, and your bow will skate over the string missing the fundamental start.
To mealyG's point, I too have been known to rock an $80 Glasser bow.
To Inc.'s point, if your rosin (assuming Pop's) is hard as a rock, replace it with a new cake of Kolstein Soft (S) rosin for the winter. Then come summer, use Kolstein "all-weather (AW)".
I like a fair bit of rosin on my bows. Try this:
To HickeyFace's point, I love my Finale CF French style bow. However, Finale's German style bow is not as nicely finished, and the crispness of the stick's hexagonal fit against the frog's lining is sloppy.
In your original posting question, arm weight is to be prioritized over bow speed (80%/20%) ... do it the other way around, and your bow will skate over the string missing the fundamental start.
To mealyG's point, I too have been known to rock an $80 Glasser bow.
To Inc.'s point, if your rosin (assuming Pop's) is hard as a rock, replace it with a new cake of Kolstein Soft (S) rosin for the winter. Then come summer, use Kolstein "all-weather (AW)".
I like a fair bit of rosin on my bows. Try this:
Using over-handed down bow strokes, put a lot of rosin on your bow. Now, with your rosin wiping rag at your side, alternately play your bass and wipe the rosin off the strings. If your good at gauging how much rosin to put on, you'll only need to wipe strings zero, once or twice over a few minutes. Too much rosin is much lots of wiping over an hour of practice.
To HickeyFace's point, I love my Finale CF French style bow. However, Finale's German style bow is not as nicely finished, and the crispness of the stick's hexagonal fit against the frog's lining is sloppy.
I did not respond at the time so apologize for my lateness. The following is copied from my response to an earlier thread by Andy Mopley. Incidently, I prefer my Finale bow to my very much more expensive Pernambuco one which now gets little use. And, yes, brand of rosin is an important variable amongst others such as hair quality and tension, bow length and speed, arm weight and bow contact point on the string.
"Hi Andy, look back in the archives. There are previous post posts in threads by Felessan around 07-22-2008 (page 17), ekspain around 05-31-2012 (page 7), David Potts around 06-11-2012 (Ask Patrick Neher), jbdoublebass around 07-05-2012 (page 6) and portphilia around 11-13-2012 (page 4). There are lots of suggestions,including some of mine.
I would suggest inventing a series of very simple basic exercises for each hand and then exercises that put together the hands. You might find them in my contributions to the above posts.
Various simple patterns of fingerings in one position on one string, bowed either slurred or separate, and even, hooked or inverse hooked, will gain control of LH finger actions.
Choosing a single note to bow on the string with increasing speed accompanied by proportionately less bow will teach a lot about producing a clearly articulated musical sound and how each string sets its own limitations.
Then putting the two hands together is an exercise in timing and coordination, whether you are crossing strings or marching up and down one string. The latter will also require an examination of your shifting technique.
All the above is to ensure that there are no extra unwanted sounds and that you are in control of clarity of articulation and evenness of rythm, length and tone. This is all very technical and you still have to consider all things musical.
Cheers, DP
David Potts, Jul 16, 2013"
"Hi Andy, look back in the archives. There are previous post posts in threads by Felessan around 07-22-2008 (page 17), ekspain around 05-31-2012 (page 7), David Potts around 06-11-2012 (Ask Patrick Neher), jbdoublebass around 07-05-2012 (page 6) and portphilia around 11-13-2012 (page 4). There are lots of suggestions,including some of mine.
I would suggest inventing a series of very simple basic exercises for each hand and then exercises that put together the hands. You might find them in my contributions to the above posts.
Various simple patterns of fingerings in one position on one string, bowed either slurred or separate, and even, hooked or inverse hooked, will gain control of LH finger actions.
Choosing a single note to bow on the string with increasing speed accompanied by proportionately less bow will teach a lot about producing a clearly articulated musical sound and how each string sets its own limitations.
Then putting the two hands together is an exercise in timing and coordination, whether you are crossing strings or marching up and down one string. The latter will also require an examination of your shifting technique.
All the above is to ensure that there are no extra unwanted sounds and that you are in control of clarity of articulation and evenness of rythm, length and tone. This is all very technical and you still have to consider all things musical.
Cheers, DP
David Potts, Jul 16, 2013"
Last edited:
Thank you very much! I've recently been able to ask a professional bassist about technics, and being able to apply those technics to my bass playing. You were right about the Pop's Rosin. It's hard as a rock. Now I'm going to go out some time later this week to find those recommend rosins. One quick question that I really would like the answer to, would you happen to have an article on how to hold a French bow? If not, could you possibly explain how to? Thank you very much for your help!
Being able to play fast clear arco 16th notes on the low E and A string is one of the hardest things on the double bass (besides playing lyrical and in tune with controlled bow in the very highest region from the 3rd octave g and on) It tends to sound muddy and unclear very quickly. The outer regions (both high and low) of the bass require the most practice to have full control. Frankly I don't like the sound of bowed fast stuff in lower region of the bass so much.
For fast passages I look for the notes that I am not happy with and try to figure out what the technical issue is that corrects things. I think it was Murray Grodner who coined the phrase that sometimes 'bassists need to be detectives' and observed that 'if its not working, then an adjustment needs to be made rather than playing over an over.' That has proven to be right time after time for me at least. YMMV!
involves a bit of experimenting i.e. could be the contact point, the posture of the elbow,wrist, shoulder, the speed of the bow, playing the notes in a different position, rising rather than crossing, string angle, playing with different fingering, starting with a different bow strategy, or bow placement, bow hold etc...perhaps about a dozen things but often it distils down to making a very simple adjustment ( or even adjustments - plural ). Play slowly - if you can't do it at half speed its not going to happen at full speed.
involves a bit of experimenting i.e. could be the contact point, the posture of the elbow,wrist, shoulder, the speed of the bow, playing the notes in a different position, rising rather than crossing, string angle, playing with different fingering, starting with a different bow strategy, or bow placement, bow hold etc...perhaps about a dozen things but often it distils down to making a very simple adjustment ( or even adjustments - plural ). Play slowly - if you can't do it at half speed its not going to happen at full speed.
There are past threads about the topic of French bow hold and also a lot on Youtube. My bow hold is a little different to Andrew Anderson's but works for me - I played for nearly three hours last night while rehearsing the "Messiah" without tiredness or pain. You could take a photo of your current bow hold to show us for comment. I guess I could do the same. The following is copied from an old thread and may provide some idea of where I am coming from.
"
If you simulate artistic bow movements, without the bow in your hand and with a relaxed wrist and fingers, there will be a flourish at each change of direction when the fingertips are the last to turn the corner. With the bow in your hand there would be a follow through at each end caused by its weight, so that the bow and fingers are the last to change direction. I personally don't need or use a lot of flourish with my wrist and fingers at each end of the bow stroke. I am guided by what each string and note needs.
I generally think backwards in this order. Sound, string movement, fingers and thumb, wrist, elbow, shoulder.
The sound you want has tone colour, length, dynamic and degree of attack (accent). This will guide you as to how much bow speed, bow weight and what sort of bow contact point you need. Also whereabouts along the hair length if only short notes.
Think of the strings, bow stick and hair all being "springs" that your bow hold (fingers and thumb) must match and be sensitive to. The way you shape your fingers and thumb will affect their flexibility. I advocate a cupped hand, coming to the bow hold by opening a gentle fist and dropping my fingers and thumb into place, with the thumb (in a long curve and) opposing the second finger. The bow hold is rather relaxed, only tight enough to control its shape throughout the bow movement. The hand angles in on the stick a few degrees by rotating the elbow up and out slightly so that the elbow ( a "hinge" joint) will flex (pump) in the same direction as the bow travels. Any movement of the wrist and fingers at each end of the bow movement should also be in the same direction as the bow travels.
Running your RH fingertips along a straight line (the edge of a desk, table or kitchen bench) as though you are bowing will demonstrate a natural blend of upper and lower arm movements required to avoid bowing in circles like a big pendulum. If your fingers are relaxed they will drag behind the arm movement and change direction last. You can also see and feel this if you draw the stick through your LH fingertips that can provide some light drag (resistance) to work against. Next place the bow on the string with the weight of your relaxed arm so that the hair bends over the string gently and grips it. Without allowing the string to be released pull the bow gently in each direction to test the flexibility and degree of movement of your fingers, thumb and wrist against the flexibility of the string. See how much movement there can be before the bow hold distorts too much and/ or the string is released and jumps into life.
The follow through of the fingers and wrist at each end of bow strokes enables the upper and lower arm to change direction in the most logical sequence. The slowest longest bow strokes involve the whole arm. As notes become shorter and faster so will the arm movements shorten and contract towards the fastest muscles, the combination of biceps/triceps twitch of the elbow with assistance from movement in the wrist and fingers. The upper arm acts as a counter balance that moves but stays relaxed. Bowing "from the shoulder" is too slow, stiff and cumbersome.
Overdoing the flourish at each change of bow direction will lose control of the string, also of timing and coordination with the other hand. It can cause unwanted extra sounds, and swells in sound during bow changes. Look down at the way the string moves during bow changes and let that guide your degree of wrist and finger movement.
Lots of experimenting on your bass with your strings, rosin and bow!!
DP"
David Potts, Dec 16, 2011
"
If you simulate artistic bow movements, without the bow in your hand and with a relaxed wrist and fingers, there will be a flourish at each change of direction when the fingertips are the last to turn the corner. With the bow in your hand there would be a follow through at each end caused by its weight, so that the bow and fingers are the last to change direction. I personally don't need or use a lot of flourish with my wrist and fingers at each end of the bow stroke. I am guided by what each string and note needs.
I generally think backwards in this order. Sound, string movement, fingers and thumb, wrist, elbow, shoulder.
The sound you want has tone colour, length, dynamic and degree of attack (accent). This will guide you as to how much bow speed, bow weight and what sort of bow contact point you need. Also whereabouts along the hair length if only short notes.
Think of the strings, bow stick and hair all being "springs" that your bow hold (fingers and thumb) must match and be sensitive to. The way you shape your fingers and thumb will affect their flexibility. I advocate a cupped hand, coming to the bow hold by opening a gentle fist and dropping my fingers and thumb into place, with the thumb (in a long curve and) opposing the second finger. The bow hold is rather relaxed, only tight enough to control its shape throughout the bow movement. The hand angles in on the stick a few degrees by rotating the elbow up and out slightly so that the elbow ( a "hinge" joint) will flex (pump) in the same direction as the bow travels. Any movement of the wrist and fingers at each end of the bow movement should also be in the same direction as the bow travels.
Running your RH fingertips along a straight line (the edge of a desk, table or kitchen bench) as though you are bowing will demonstrate a natural blend of upper and lower arm movements required to avoid bowing in circles like a big pendulum. If your fingers are relaxed they will drag behind the arm movement and change direction last. You can also see and feel this if you draw the stick through your LH fingertips that can provide some light drag (resistance) to work against. Next place the bow on the string with the weight of your relaxed arm so that the hair bends over the string gently and grips it. Without allowing the string to be released pull the bow gently in each direction to test the flexibility and degree of movement of your fingers, thumb and wrist against the flexibility of the string. See how much movement there can be before the bow hold distorts too much and/ or the string is released and jumps into life.
The follow through of the fingers and wrist at each end of bow strokes enables the upper and lower arm to change direction in the most logical sequence. The slowest longest bow strokes involve the whole arm. As notes become shorter and faster so will the arm movements shorten and contract towards the fastest muscles, the combination of biceps/triceps twitch of the elbow with assistance from movement in the wrist and fingers. The upper arm acts as a counter balance that moves but stays relaxed. Bowing "from the shoulder" is too slow, stiff and cumbersome.
Overdoing the flourish at each change of bow direction will lose control of the string, also of timing and coordination with the other hand. It can cause unwanted extra sounds, and swells in sound during bow changes. Look down at the way the string moves during bow changes and let that guide your degree of wrist and finger movement.
Lots of experimenting on your bass with your strings, rosin and bow!!
DP"
David Potts, Dec 16, 2011
The bow counts a lot but it is more a technique. Playing at that speed is best done on a quasi spiccato. The bounce is replaced by a sort of scooping motion. It is all about controlled weight and bounce. Takes * a lot* of practice to get it right but well worth the effort. I'm still working on mine when when I am in that groove..........my oh my.....
