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How to get a tone like Jack Bruce (Cream)
- Thread starter Gearhead43
- Start date
You left out Cliff Williams.
On any given gig, I might use one or two basses tops, not counting my upright. And I always only use one amp. Doesn't matter what it is. I will kick ass in the exact same way and sound the same just because I play like me. I could sell everything except one bass and one amp and kick just as much ass and work as much as I ever did. But I went for a long time with only one bass and one amp, so forgive me for overindulging myself a little.
This will be the last of me debating the subject, since as you stated, no one is changing anyone else's mind here. Why not admit you have different basses for different tonal options. You can't possibly (at least I hope not) have different basses for appearances? A blue bass to go with your blue suit, a red bass for your red suit.
An example, a youtube (possibly Talkbass, I don't know) bassist by the name of MarloweDK who you may be familiar with:
Rickenbacker:
Probably recorded direct into the soundcard, same technique from the same guy, if you don't think there are tonal differences between those two vids, I recommend getting your earbones checked out.
I mean no offense, I am just awestruck that people (you aren't the only one) really stick by their guns with the "tone is in your hands" bull ****. To an extent, it is true, if you have terrible technique, your tone will suck (or at least be affected, suck is in the eye of the beholder). But I'd call it 50/50 gear/hands.
It's always the guys with a bunch of great gear who stick by the tone is in your hands motto. It's cute.
I should state for the record, this is coming from someone who tries to emulate the tone technique of Jack Bruce/Geezer Butler.
Feel free to reply, but I really am done debating this.
Another cute bunch of people are the ones that say a wide neck is just as easy to play as a narrow neck for people with small hands.
JB + EB3 + Marshall does not sound like JB + Warwick + Hartke.
Even Jack's tone during the Cream reunion tour with the Gibson and the Warwick was very different.
Same bass player, same night, different bassses different tone.
Just some random thoughts on the subject.
I've been a fan of Jack Bruce since 1966. Saw him with Cream in 1968 and again at Madison Square Garden for the Cream reunion. I also caught him about 8+ years ago with Ringo Star and the Allstars. On all three occassions Jack Bruce sounded exactly like Jack Bruce. But did he sound the same in 2005 as he did in 1968 and I'd say that the answer is no. How much of that was due to the gear and how much to the fact that Jack Bruce wasn't the same player in 2005 that he was in 1968 - I'd say that accounted for most of it but not all. (It should be noted, and take it FWIW, that Eric and Jack both spent considerable amount of time prior to the reunion gig deciding what gear they would use. They've both stated that they tried the old Marshalls, etc. but just didn't like it. And as a joke to the fans that were disappointed with their choice they performed at MGS with tiny models of Marshall stacks ontop of their gear.) Wondering outloud, I'd suggest that most of their tonal differences was due to their evolution as musicians, and only some to the gear. Could they have sounded like they did in 1968 using their modern gear, and my answer is perhaps not 'exactly' but mighty close.
Make of this what you will.
I've been a fan of Jack Bruce since 1966. Saw him with Cream in 1968 and again at Madison Square Garden for the Cream reunion. I also caught him about 8+ years ago with Ringo Star and the Allstars. On all three occassions Jack Bruce sounded exactly like Jack Bruce. But did he sound the same in 2005 as he did in 1968 and I'd say that the answer is no. How much of that was due to the gear and how much to the fact that Jack Bruce wasn't the same player in 2005 that he was in 1968 - I'd say that accounted for most of it but not all. (It should be noted, and take it FWIW, that Eric and Jack both spent considerable amount of time prior to the reunion gig deciding what gear they would use. They've both stated that they tried the old Marshalls, etc. but just didn't like it. And as a joke to the fans that were disappointed with their choice they performed at MGS with tiny models of Marshall stacks ontop of their gear.) Wondering outloud, I'd suggest that most of their tonal differences was due to their evolution as musicians, and only some to the gear. Could they have sounded like they did in 1968 using their modern gear, and my answer is perhaps not 'exactly' but mighty close.
Make of this what you will.
HOW TO TURN YOUR HANDS INTO A RAGING MARSHALL STACK
1. Cut off your hands
2. Have them replaced with a raging Marshall stack
OK, you win. I won't keep debating this because neither of us will change the other's mind. In 10 years when you discover I was right, though, I hope you come back and apologize
Ah, Brilliant!
And in 10 years I'll have enough nice gear to come back here (or somewhere else) and say "Oh children, the tone is all in your hands, don't you see?"
OK, these are my final final words...I promise...no, really they are:
Pedro, good job, dude. You hit on exactly what I was trying to say.
Only an idiot would say there are no tonal differences between an EB-3 into a wall of Marshall guitar cabs and a fretless Warwick into a wall of Hartkes. I'm saying that the way the player plays overrides everything, and I mean everything. Good equipment won't make a crappy player sound good, but a good player will make crappy equipment sound good. I own the basses and amps I own for no other reason than I like a little variety. Has nothing to do with copping tones. I don't play any differently on the P Lyte than I do on the Turser Beatle bass than I do on my active neck-thru 5-string. The basses may sound different, but the overriding factor is my playing, which doesn't change.
Same with a legendary figure like Jack Bruce who used a specific rig and doesn't use it anymore. Take Jack Bruce and 9 different bassists, put half on Jack's old rig, the other half plus Jack himself on Jack's new rig, and I guarantee I'll be able to pick out Jack every time because his playing is just that distinctive.
Anyway, good luck with trying to cop the tone, Gearhead.
Pedro, good job, dude. You hit on exactly what I was trying to say.
Only an idiot would say there are no tonal differences between an EB-3 into a wall of Marshall guitar cabs and a fretless Warwick into a wall of Hartkes. I'm saying that the way the player plays overrides everything, and I mean everything. Good equipment won't make a crappy player sound good, but a good player will make crappy equipment sound good. I own the basses and amps I own for no other reason than I like a little variety. Has nothing to do with copping tones. I don't play any differently on the P Lyte than I do on the Turser Beatle bass than I do on my active neck-thru 5-string. The basses may sound different, but the overriding factor is my playing, which doesn't change.
Same with a legendary figure like Jack Bruce who used a specific rig and doesn't use it anymore. Take Jack Bruce and 9 different bassists, put half on Jack's old rig, the other half plus Jack himself on Jack's new rig, and I guarantee I'll be able to pick out Jack every time because his playing is just that distinctive.
Anyway, good luck with trying to cop the tone, Gearhead.
Since when were skill and tone related?
Sure, if you suck at bass you'll sound bad, but if you're playing a pro's setup the tone (which is the whole point of this thread) will still be the same.
And of course he isn't using the same rig as 40 years ago, but how many thousands, if not millions, of dollars has he had to cherrypick components to reproduce his old sound?
Earlier in this thread I read that someone thinks Jack is playing Felix's old Gibson EB1 bass. Not True. Felix played a 1968 model Gibson. Jack's EB1 is much older and has a Super Tone bridge and Klusons tuners.
The Cream EB3 that Jack played was modified by Dan Armstrong. Dan added something to the Veritone circuit
As for his eq. Highs -0 Mids- 10 Bass 0
and volume 11.
G
The Cream EB3 that Jack played was modified by Dan Armstrong. Dan added something to the Veritone circuit
As for his eq. Highs -0 Mids- 10 Bass 0
and volume 11.
G
Nope-
Too many examples of peopel who pick up someone elses instrument at a sound check and don't sound like the other guy. Victor Bailey once (ancient interveiw in Guitar World Magazine while Jaco was still alive) said he played The Bass of Doom through Jaco's rig and still sounded like Victor Bailey. Ted Nugent and EVH swapped gear at a sound check once- Ted using the Charvel/whatever through the modded Marshall and the "bomb", Edward using a Byrdland through the wall of Fenders. The both said they sounded like themselves.
As pointed out just above me- no, the Warwick through the Hartke (and whatever recording gear was used for the reunion concerts, and however those recordings were EQ'd and mastered) doesn't sound exactly like the EB-3 through the Marshalls with the crapped out speakers (and again however those recordings were EQ'd and mastered). But the essential elements of what makes it sound like Jack Bruce instead of Duck Dunn or even like Felix Pappilardi are there in both sounds.
And the points of all of this as relates to the original post is that:
A. Gear choice only get you into the right neighborhood- there's a LOT more involved with other stuff than the gear.
B. Having the exact same gear ain't gonna give you that sound
C. There's other gear that'll do the job better for YOU to cop a particular sound than what worked for Bruce, or Cassady, or Marcus, or Jamerson, or Duff McKagan, et. al.
D. There's a LOT of stuff beyond the bassist, the bass, and the strings- we're dealing with a recorded medium and there's at least as many, if not more, variable in that melange!
jte
Anything you do in your bass/rig is going to affect your sound. Technique is a part of it- and a big key in how you sound like you do. HOWEVER taking pieces of Bruce's Cream era rig as what they were- they were pretty significant in their tonal options/limitations. Just as you're not going to get an EB-3 to sound like a P, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to get a P to sound like an EB-3. Alder vs. mahogany, bolt on vs. set neck, regular scale vs. short scale, pickup in the "sweet spot" vs. Massive humbucker at the end of the fretboard. Just as saying you can get a bridge pickup in a Jazz to sound "just like" the neck pickup through varying technique- it's not true.
IMO any of Felix' Mountain bass tone is more similar to Bruce's Cream era sound- and the key there is that massive humbucker at the end of the fretboard on a set neck, short scale mahogany bass. The other thing is the drive and the middyness of the sound. I don't know what Felix used for cabs- I'm guessing Sunn 2x15 cabs. With Bruce's Cream sound he was using sealed 4x12s with 25w speakers. Not only is the amp overdriving, but he's torturing those speakers as well.
For fun:
http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/cream/loud_and_louder3.htm
http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/cream/basses.htm
As far as getting in the neighborhood of that tone with a newer EB-0, use a pre to drive your gain- set your EQ to be middy- and pull out your high end. I don't know from experience, but I've *heard* the mudbucker on the newer EB style basses is NOT the same as the old ones, with a lot less low end indistinctness- so you may need to compensate for that through the EQ.
IMO any of Felix' Mountain bass tone is more similar to Bruce's Cream era sound- and the key there is that massive humbucker at the end of the fretboard on a set neck, short scale mahogany bass. The other thing is the drive and the middyness of the sound. I don't know what Felix used for cabs- I'm guessing Sunn 2x15 cabs. With Bruce's Cream sound he was using sealed 4x12s with 25w speakers. Not only is the amp overdriving, but he's torturing those speakers as well.
For fun:
http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/cream/loud_and_louder3.htm
http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/cream/basses.htm
As far as getting in the neighborhood of that tone with a newer EB-0, use a pre to drive your gain- set your EQ to be middy- and pull out your high end. I don't know from experience, but I've *heard* the mudbucker on the newer EB style basses is NOT the same as the old ones, with a lot less low end indistinctness- so you may need to compensate for that through the EQ.
I saw, no.. heard... no, FELT Felix with Mountain at Kleinhans Music Hall in Buffalo in 1971. I've heard Chicago, Mothers, Three Dog Night, Iron Butterfly, and the Guess Who in that hall that winter. I later played in bass section of the Buffalo Philharmonic on that same stage.
Nobody, I mean NObody shook that building like he did. He had his Gibson, 6 2X15 Sunn Cabs and three heads. People don't realize how HE influenced Bruce and visa veras, and that he played viola, keyboard and bass on Cream albums. Both were deeply classically trained. Beethoven would have loved (and felt) them both.
After that concert, I routed a humbucker into my 69P. It didn't work!!
I can not think of a more untimely death (except SRV). Whenever I was alone on the darkened stage before or after rehearsals, it was his ghost that I was warmed by.
I'll say this too: thank God these great bands recorded before digital. It wouldn't be, and isn't, the same.
Nobody, I mean NObody shook that building like he did. He had his Gibson, 6 2X15 Sunn Cabs and three heads. People don't realize how HE influenced Bruce and visa veras, and that he played viola, keyboard and bass on Cream albums. Both were deeply classically trained. Beethoven would have loved (and felt) them both.
After that concert, I routed a humbucker into my 69P. It didn't work!!
I can not think of a more untimely death (except SRV). Whenever I was alone on the darkened stage before or after rehearsals, it was his ghost that I was warmed by.
I'll say this too: thank God these great bands recorded before digital. It wouldn't be, and isn't, the same.
Was Doug Ingle using this amp for his organ when you saw him:
Invalid Link Removed
?
Vetchking Here:
1st off for Jacks sound get a Fender Bass man turn it on 4.5 and there ya go........ If you want more go to 6.5............ automatic distortion.
As far as JPJ's sound Get an "acoustic" 360...........
Done deal...........
Later
1st off for Jacks sound get a Fender Bass man turn it on 4.5 and there ya go........ If you want more go to 6.5............ automatic distortion.
As far as JPJ's sound Get an "acoustic" 360...........
Done deal...........
Later
Except for that silly "playing" part which has absolutely no bearing on anything according to folks in this thread.
JimmyM-
KOOL! I remember a line of Ampegs for sure. Where did you get that head?
Lee Dorman was great.
KOOL! I remember a line of Ampegs for sure. Where did you get that head?
Lee Dorman was great.
- Dec 18, 2000
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Yah! Really came up with interesting lines / note choices. He'd probably be accused of overplaying by the root pounder police of today and that makes me like him all the better ; }
Picked it and an 810 up for $650 in 1987 at a local music store in Orlando. Wish I could get hold of Ingle to authenticate it but he's a bit of a recluse from what I hear. He wasn't with IB when I saw them in 80. Lee Dorman was, though, and he was terrific.
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