How to get a tone like Jack Bruce (Cream)

[pedro]

Cool.

 

[JimmyM]

I declare victory for our side!

 

[The Golden Boy]

I declare victory for our side!

No. Not even close.

No. What I'm saying is that the differences one hears are more attributable to his evolution as a musician than to a choice of gear. FWIW, Jack never wanted the sound you hear in the 1966-1968 recordings (although I did). That was quite accidental and in fact by the time he did his recordings with Zappa he had moved on sonically. The story is that when he arrived to do 'Apostrophe' Zappa said he wanted the old sound and Bruce when and had his gear modified to accomodate Zappa's desire.

As I've said on a couple of occassions already, its not that the gear doesn't make 'any' difference, its just that I believe a musician of Bruce's talents could dial in his desired tone with pretty much any quality gear, in much the same way, as Duck, Babbitt did when I saw them (also Jaco).

And that's been my point all along. Equipment alone will not get it. Maybe some of you are OK taking the responsibility of your tone away from you and putting it onto the gear. I am not. I definitely have favorites for gear, but I take 100% personal responsibility for my tone. If any of you played my rig, you wouldn't sound like me, and vice versa.

The entire point of the thread has been "how to get the Cream era Jack Bruce sound."

All the emphasis on the "tone is in your fingers" stuff is completely off bass in this instance. Jack Bruce himself has not had a bass sound like his Cream sound since he stopped using the Cream era gear. Yes, he still plays like Jack Bruce, but he does not sound like that. Even in the clips of him playing the EB-1, he does not have that 1968 era Jack Bruce from Cream sound.

Everyone has just ignored the premise of the thread to promote the "tone is in the fingers" rhetoric- I believe the technique of the user has a significant impact- and I've never not conceded that- HOWEVER the largest contributing factors to Bruce's Cream era tone are the tonal characteristics of the model of the bass that he was using, an overdriven Marshall amplifier and sealed 4x12 cabinets with 25w speakers in them. Those 3 factors combine to form a particular signature sound that can only be reproduced by using similar equipment.

I believe that there are things you can easily do to alter your bass sounds- if you have a Jazz and you want it to sound like a P- Roll off the bridge volume. If you want your bass to have a mellow attack, play closer to the neck and roll off the tone- for a brighter sound, play closer to the bridge... There are some things you can only approximate- you're not going to get an alder body, maple necked full scale instrument with pickups in the traditional P and/or J positions to sound like a short scale mahogany bodied and set mahogany necked instrument with the pickup mounted towards the end of the fretboard. It's just in what the properties of the wood and the location of the pickup are able to reproduce.

Pedro- you say Jack Bruce never wanted his Cream bass sound- but why did his bass sound sound like that? If Jack Bruce had to modify his gear to accommodate Zappa's taste- why couldn't Jack Bruce have adjusted his technique or willed his bass tone to be like it was?

JimmyM- you take 100% responsibility for your tone- how would you get the tone of a Jazz bass out of a P bass?

Removing Bruce from the equation- How would you guys adjust your technique to approximate the sound of someone playing an EB-3 into an overdriven 100w Marshall through a 4x12 cab?

 

[superfunk47]

No. Not even close.






The entire point of the thread has been "how to get the Cream era Jack Bruce sound."

All the emphasis on the "tone is in your fingers" stuff is completely off bass in this instance. Jack Bruce himself has not had a bass sound like his Cream sound since he stopped using the Cream era gear. Yes, he still plays like Jack Bruce, but he does not sound like that. Even in the clips of him playing the EB-1, he does not have that 1968 era Jack Bruce from Cream sound.

Everyone has just ignored the premise of the thread to promote the "tone is in the fingers" rhetoric- I believe the technique of the user has a significant impact- and I've never not conceded that- HOWEVER the largest contributing factors to Bruce's Cream era tone are the tonal characteristics of the model of the bass that he was using, an overdriven Marshall amplifier and sealed 4x12 cabinets with 25w speakers in them. Those 3 factors combine to form a particular signature sound that can only be reproduced by using similar equipment.

I believe that there are things you can easily do to alter your bass sounds- if you have a Jazz and you want it to sound like a P- Roll off the bridge volume. If you want your bass to have a mellow attack, play closer to the neck and roll off the tone- for a brighter sound, play closer to the bridge... There are some things you can only approximate- you're not going to get an alder body, maple necked full scale instrument with pickups in the traditional P and/or J positions to sound like a short scale mahogany bodied and set mahogany necked instrument with the pickup mounted towards the end of the fretboard. It's just in what the properties of the wood and the location of the pickup are able to reproduce.

Pedro- you say Jack Bruce never wanted his Cream bass sound- but why did his bass sound sound like that? If Jack Bruce had to modify his gear to accommodate Zappa's taste- why couldn't Jack Bruce have adjusted his technique or willed his bass tone to be like it was?

JimmyM- you take 100% responsibility for your tone- how would you get the tone of a Jazz bass out of a P bass?

Removing Bruce from the equation- How would you guys adjust your technique to approximate the sound of someone playing an EB-3 into an overdriven 100w Marshall through a 4x12 cab?

Sigh.

The desire to be right outlives the desire to help the OP in his own thread. Sad day.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Sigh.

The desire to be right outlives the desire to help the OP in his own thread. Sad day.

As long as someone's going to continue giving bad information, I'm going to continue to tell them they're wrong.

You think that's sad?

 

[KPAX]

+1, yes, I agree.

To anyone who says Jack never wanted his Cream bass sound, why did he go for a Cream-bass-sound-on-steroids in West, Bruce & Laing?
His bass tone on Why Doncha and Live-N-Kickin' is kickass!

No. Not even close.






The entire point of the thread has been "how to get the Cream era Jack Bruce sound."

All the emphasis on the "tone is in your fingers" stuff is completely off bass in this instance. Jack Bruce himself has not had a bass sound like his Cream sound since he stopped using the Cream era gear. Yes, he still plays like Jack Bruce, but he does not sound like that. Even in the clips of him playing the EB-1, he does not have that 1968 era Jack Bruce from Cream sound.

Everyone has just ignored the premise of the thread to promote the "tone is in the fingers" rhetoric- I believe the technique of the user has a significant impact- and I've never not conceded that- HOWEVER the largest contributing factors to Bruce's Cream era tone are the tonal characteristics of the model of the bass that he was using, an overdriven Marshall amplifier and sealed 4x12 cabinets with 25w speakers in them. Those 3 factors combine to form a particular signature sound that can only be reproduced by using similar equipment.

I believe that there are things you can easily do to alter your bass sounds- if you have a Jazz and you want it to sound like a P- Roll off the bridge volume. If you want your bass to have a mellow attack, play closer to the neck and roll off the tone- for a brighter sound, play closer to the bridge... There are some things you can only approximate- you're not going to get an alder body, maple necked full scale instrument with pickups in the traditional P and/or J positions to sound like a short scale mahogany bodied and set mahogany necked instrument with the pickup mounted towards the end of the fretboard. It's just in what the properties of the wood and the location of the pickup are able to reproduce.

Pedro- you say Jack Bruce never wanted his Cream bass sound- but why did his bass sound sound like that? If Jack Bruce had to modify his gear to accommodate Zappa's taste- why couldn't Jack Bruce have adjusted his technique or willed his bass tone to be like it was?

JimmyM- you take 100% responsibility for your tone- how would you get the tone of a Jazz bass out of a P bass?

Removing Bruce from the equation- How would you guys adjust your technique to approximate the sound of someone playing an EB-3 into an overdriven 100w Marshall through a 4x12 cab?

 

[JimmyM]

JimmyM- you take 100% responsibility for your tone- how would you get the tone of a Jazz bass out of a P bass?

I wouldn't, but if you knew my playing style, you'd know it was me playing.

 

[pedro]

Everyone has just ignored the premise of the thread to promote the "tone is in the fingers" rhetoric-

We have not ignored the premise of this thread only cautioned that getting the same gear is not likely to produce the exact results the OP is seeking.

I've already said several times (this is likely my last time saying it) that gear does make a difference. But I believe tone is not just a product of the amp and bass. If it was then somebody please tell me what microphone Ray Charles used when he sang 'Georgia' cause I'd love to buy that sound.

I believe the technique of the user has a significant impact- and I've never not conceded that- HOWEVER the largest contributing factors to Bruce's Cream era tone are the tonal characteristics of the model of the bass that he was using, an overdriven Marshall amplifier and sealed 4x12 cabinets with 25w speakers in them.

Well that's the first time I've seen you say that technique has any bearing at all on tone. So its simply a matter of degrees that we disagree on. You think most of it comes from gear and I don't.

 

[The Golden Boy]

I wouldn't, but if you knew my playing style, you'd know it was me playing.

But that's not the question.

The issue is how you would get a tone similar to a Jazz bass with both pickups on with a P. Not knowing it was you playing- how to get that "jazz with both pickups on" sound.

 

[JimmyM]

We have not ignored the premise of this thread only cautioned that getting the same gear is not likely to produce the exact results the OP is seeking.

I've already said several times (this is likely my last time saying it) that gear does make a difference. But I believe tone is not just a product of the amp and bass. If it was then somebody please tell me what microphone Ray Charles used when he sang 'Georgia' cause I'd love to buy that sound.

Pedro, with that comment, there is absolutely nothing else to say. I so wish I'd have said it (and I will when you're not around). Game, set, match!

 

[JimmyM]

But that's not the question.

The issue is how you would get a tone similar to a Jazz bass with both pickups on with a P. Not knowing it was you playing- how to get that "jazz with both pickups on" sound.

Boy, you are one obstinate dude all fixated on your little narrow focus.

OK, one last time...using the "right" equipment will get you no closer to the goal of copping Jack Bruce Cream tone than you were before unless you play like him.

 

[dougjwray]

I'm going to take an aspirin and lie down... will you guys let me know when this is over?

 

[Slax]

Everyone has just ignored the premise of the thread to promote the "tone is in the fingers" rhetoric- I believe the technique of the user has a significant impact- and I've never not conceded that- HOWEVER the largest contributing factors to Bruce's Cream era tone are the tonal characteristics of the model of the bass that he was using, an overdriven Marshall amplifier and sealed 4x12 cabinets with 25w speakers in them. Those 3 factors combine to form a particular signature sound that can only be reproduced by using similar equipment.

I agree with this. But, if you're playing an EB3 through a Marshall wall, no one's going to stop and go "HOLY S***! THAT'S JUST LIKE JACK BRUCE!". They'll just go, "Oh, it's so and so through that gear". Sure the tone is there, but w/o the technique, note choicings, and thought patterns as that person, you're phrasing and style will be different.

 

[dougjwray]

I agree with this. But, if you're playing an EB3 through a Marshall wall, no one's going to stop and go "HOLY S***! THAT'S JUST LIKE JACK BRUCE!". They'll just go, "Oh, it's so and so through that gear". Sure the tone is there, but w/o the technique, note choicings, and thought patterns as that person, you're phrasing and style will be different.

I don't think anyone would disagree. But when you say, "Sure the tone is there", THAT'S what the original question was about, I think: the tone. The guy didn't want to fool anyone into thinking he was Jack Bruce, he just wanted some tips on equipment!
Sometimes the navel-gazing and Zenlike pondering on this forum is very, very amusing to me!
Oh, I forgot to lie down...

 

[pedro]

I'm going to take an aspirin and lie down... will you guys let me know when this is over?

Don't hog the aspirin. Pass them around.

 

[dougjwray]

Don't hog the aspirin. Pass them around.

No problem, bro... here... I'll squeeze it through the modem...

 

[The Golden Boy]

We have not ignored the premise of this thread only cautioned that getting the same gear is not likely to produce the exact results the OP is seeking.

I've already said several times (this is likely my last time saying it) that gear does make a difference. But I believe tone is not just a product of the amp and bass. If it was then somebody please tell me what microphone Ray Charles used when he sang 'Georgia' cause I'd love to buy that sound.




Well that's the first time I've seen you say that technique has any bearing at all on tone. So its simply a matter of degrees that we disagree on. You think most of it comes from gear and I don't.

From my first post in this thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6679069&postcount=53

Technique is a part of it- and a big key in how you sound like you do. HOWEVER taking pieces of Bruce's Cream era rig as what they were- they were pretty significant in their tonal options/limitations.

There are pieces of gear that have "signature" sounds- in other words, they imprint, very deeply, their own sonic fingerprint on whatever is played- regardless of who is playing it. In the case of Jack Bruce- He's playing an EB-3 through an overdriven Marshall with a sealed 4x12 and 25w speakers. Other players, who are not Jack Bruce, and don't really play like Jack Bruce have similar sounds using identical or similar gear.

Where you use the example of a microphone- certain microphones have certain properties that are used for specific purposes. You don't see pro studios with everything being miced with SM-58s. You want definition and clarity- for overhead on the drums- use a C-12. You want a great snare sound- use a 666... All microphones are not the same and do not emphasize or de-emphasize same frequencies or have the same compression or the same sonic properties... (and I did record at a "studio" that used an SM-58 on my bass cab) What you're doing is equating the performance with what is heard- and that's not the way it works.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Boy, you are one obstinate dude all fixated on your little narrow focus.

OK, one last time...using the "right" equipment will get you no closer to the goal of copping Jack Bruce Cream tone than you were before unless you play like him.

It's the "little narrow focus" of the premise of the thread.

How to get a Cream era Jack Bruce sound.

Not how to play like Jack Bruce, not how technique is superior to anything- how to to get a bass sound like Jack Bruce's bass sound he had during Cream.

If you certainly believe that "only playing like Jack Bruce" is the only way to get that sound, why does Andy Fraser have that same approximate sound? You yourself said

Ya, I don't hear it myself. I hear a guy who plays busy and good, but I'd never mistake Andy Fraser for Jack Bruce.

But yet the bass sound is strikingly similar.

 

[pedro]

Where you use the example of a microphone- certain microphones have certain properties that are used for specific purposes. You don't see pro studios with everything being miced with SM-58s. You want definition and clarity- for overhead on the drums- use a C-12. You want a great snare sound- use a 666... All microphones are not the same and do not emphasize or de-emphasize same frequencies or have the same compression or the same sonic properties... (and I did record at a "studio" that used an SM-58 on my bass cab) What you're doing is equating the performance with what is heard- and that's not the way it works.

Tell ya what brother if you get me a microphone that makes me sound like Ray Charles or Steve Winwood or Marvin Gaye I'll concede the whole thing.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Tell ya what brother if you get me a microphone that makes me sound like Ray Charles or Steve Winwood or Marvin Gaye I'll concede the whole thing.

Tell you what- you're in Madison. Give Smart Studios a call. Some of those engineers would love to talk about the nuances of different microphones...