guy n. cognito said:
I appreciate that. I was just adding my 2 cents on the limitations of those apps.
I still think that reading music with bass in hand will do the trick.
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How to get student to learn the fretboard
- Thread starter DougD
- Start date
I appreciate that. I was just adding my 2 cents on the limitations of those apps.
I still think that reading music with bass in hand will do the trick.
It does, usually. Problem is most material now comes in standard and tab format. I have to black out the tab part so that he doesn't read from that. Nothing wrong with tab if that's your thing, but it's too easy to fall into tab reading when it's right below the standard part.
Yes he can play along with a song. Problem is (i think) his fear of playing a wrong note when I try to get him to explore. Cant get him to connect the dots theory wise. Don't know if i explained that right. But IMHO that's the main issue. If I can break through that block, this kid can become a dynamic player.
Not getting on anybodies case but sight reading as in reading any form of music is one task, playing is another, so by sight reading away from the instrument you reinforce that part not to get in the way of playing, or visa versa. It is a simple premise of learning that it is easier to learn certain elements to internalise them then being them together to be polished off so to speak as one.
As the apps thing will show, you have to learn what keys or buttons to push to get the correct answer, you may know the answer but pushed the wrong button, so it is not that you do not know the answer, its you just accessed the wrong buttons.
Student of mine brought one in for sight reading, he has to read off the notes against the clock, so now the pressure of time is involved and he now has a score to beat...all these things add to him getting the wrong answer, and as he all ready knows the answer when he sees it the app is testing him in a different way.
He was not getting faster times by reading the notes, he was getting better at all the features of the task by recognising what to push without looking for it and forgetting about the clock, the clock means nothing to the task other than another distraction for the brain. So by not having to think on the note, he could concentrate on getting the right buttons...which made his times better. He was basically sight reading on a phone, but could not see it at the time, till we compared the two tasks, now he sight reads on the bass, but still hones his skills on the phone app when bored against the clock.
Could he have got the same result without the phone??? well yes i believe so and know so, but it is for him to believe not me, the app was just a reference for me to help him relate to what he was really doing.
I'm not a teacher nor anyone else's formal student (so flame away), but something I learned from Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop is how to love the wrong note. If you hit a random note, it's right 7/12ths of the time (better than half), and the other times, you're only a half step away from a right note.
Given that, feel the tension that the "wrong note" can lend you, when you transition to a right note. Lean on it, build it up, then flow into where you're "supposed" to be.
So see if you can catch your student hitting one of those "wrong note" situations, then go work on that phrase --with-- the wrong note, see how to make it all fit.
Given that, feel the tension that the "wrong note" can lend you, when you transition to a right note. Lean on it, build it up, then flow into where you're "supposed" to be.
So see if you can catch your student hitting one of those "wrong note" situations, then go work on that phrase --with-- the wrong note, see how to make it all fit.
Back in my guitar days my instructor told me he did not care if I hit a bad note - if I corrected it.
It was when I did not correct it - that was when he corrected me. Yep a good note is one fret away from a bad one.
It was when I did not correct it - that was when he corrected me. Yep a good note is one fret away from a bad one.
This is not about "keys" so much as it is about learning a simple framework to learn where the notes are on the fretboard. Once you know where the natural notes are its much easier to ingrain where the accidentals are (or what you like to call that accidental based on a certain "key" that you're in-sharp or flat). Think of it like learning all the names of the white keys on the piano first, then when you play a black note the name of that note is related to the "key" that you're in, but you know what the potential two names of that note are by first knowing what white notes are around/adjacent to it...(does that make some sense?)
If the original post was right about the student knowing his modes and scales (these are just patterns), then you just need a system to learn the fretboard note locations is all my point was...making "music" is a whole nother matter
Hey Doug,
what I do sometimes to get my students to stop thinking of "Rootville" is first break the tune down into arpeggios, then I tell the student for an exercise is to know where the roots are in time, but you cannot play the root, you must play only thirds and fifths and sevenths first, then you can add the root as a passing tone. so base some patterns built off of the root without trying to always start on the root--see the patterns around the root. this system is what a lot of good melody players do because always starting on the root can sound trite and amateurish especially in a solo. once he is comfortable with the arpeggios, then you can fill in with scales and pentatonics based off the root and the fifth of the chord is really cool too.
I have a few suggestions. First, ian_s mentioned Victor Wooten's point that any wrong note you hit is just a 1/2 step away from a "right" note. Emphasizing that to your student might calm his nerves a bit. If he hits a wrong note, all he has to do is move up or down 1 fret and he'll be on a right note.
Second, I'd recommend taking his comfort zone away from him. Next time you're working with him on improv, tell him he's not allowed to play the root--at all. ANY note is now a better choice than the root. If he still gravitates toward the root, point it out and make him choose a different note.
Third, and you may have already done this, but stress that when improvising--especially early on--one of the most important things to learn is to NOT judge what you're playing. Right now, his task is to get comfortable venturing outside of his comfort zone--period. Sounding "good" isn't a priority at the moment, that will come later as his musicianship and comfort on the instrument improves. He (and you) should consider an improv successful if he does anything other than what he's most comfortable with, i.e., sticking to the root.
These three approaches combined should at least force him off the root and hopefully help him start finding other note choices that he likes without all the self-judgement he's bringing to the table. Hope it helps!
Second, I'd recommend taking his comfort zone away from him. Next time you're working with him on improv, tell him he's not allowed to play the root--at all. ANY note is now a better choice than the root. If he still gravitates toward the root, point it out and make him choose a different note.
Third, and you may have already done this, but stress that when improvising--especially early on--one of the most important things to learn is to NOT judge what you're playing. Right now, his task is to get comfortable venturing outside of his comfort zone--period. Sounding "good" isn't a priority at the moment, that will come later as his musicianship and comfort on the instrument improves. He (and you) should consider an improv successful if he does anything other than what he's most comfortable with, i.e., sticking to the root.
These three approaches combined should at least force him off the root and hopefully help him start finding other note choices that he likes without all the self-judgement he's bringing to the table. Hope it helps!
+ infinity. I have tried various on-line tools for learning the fret board.
I got really good at identifying the notes on the picture of the fretboard on the screen......
DougD said:
The Real Book bass clef edition has no tabs and tons of great melodies at a wide range of levels of difficulty.
If he doesn't want to make mistakes, he'll never learn to solo or really be creative. Everyone has to make mistakes in order to learn what works and what doesn't. Why not have him log in here so he can read the comments?
Just tell him to let 'er rip. He may not want to make mistakes in front of you but he needs to let loose. Has he played in front of other people? How does he expect to not be scared crapless if he doesn't learn to let his mistakes go. If they're minor, most people won't notice unless they're really bad and if he learns the "if you mess up, play it that way again so everyone thinks you did it on purpose" adage, everything will be fine (especially if he ends up playing music that's a bit avant garde).
Ask him what he has against clams.
I like to reference the use of intervals and scale degrees to learn how to get around the fretboard. I did this when I just got frustrated trying to remember where each note was on the fretboard. I figured as long as I knew where the Root was, I can figure out how to get around the fretboard by knowing the proper place of the scale degrees on the neck.
Since he knows the scales, I assume he knows why a scale is a scale and not just the pattern, than he should be able to use this knowledge to look at the fretboard in a different way.
Since he knows the scales, I assume he knows why a scale is a scale and not just the pattern, than he should be able to use this knowledge to look at the fretboard in a different way.
My teacher would have me sight read and I would be OK for a while, then I'd screw up. At first, he'd have me start over and I would screw up at the same place. I'd be reading, but I had also memorized it on the previous pass, which made him crazy. When I'd solo, he'd say he liked a lot of it but when he asked why I played certain things, I would say that I thought it would sound good. To me, that was the whole point of learning this and since he had gone to school for music, it was a strange concept to him- he had learned what works where, why and how it can be used in all keys. I, OTOH, had learned to read when I started on guitar (I had music classes in grade school, so I had a handle on note durations and the musical staff), played trombone for two years toward the end of the first three years playing guitar and stopped playing both at about the same time because nobody else my age was playing where I lived. I picked it up three years later and learned all of the music I wanted to play by ear. It was far easier for me and I started taking lessons a few years later, having a hard time with the reading when I played. Looking at sheet music, I can go through it with no problem.
I really think most people who need help with their ear need to learn to memorize the sound of different intervals before anything else. That's about the easiest way to hear where the notes are, IMO. Once they learn the intervals of one octave, they can use that to work on one position at a time (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc) and when they have that down, they can move up an octave- it's all the same after the 12th, anyway. Once they nail the muscle memory part, it's much easier but that has to go along with the ear training.
Ok I am going to offer my humble opinion here. I think that the discussion has moved away from what I and I emphasize I think the main point of the problem. While what technique the teacher uses plays a big part, most importantly how does he motivate the student to do necessary work to learn the fretboard. That is the problem as I see it. Just like I don't know how to motivate our son to do the things that he should do. Trying to force the fretboard on the student without his desire to learn it may cause him to retreat. I would say maybe ignore it and simply hope that the limitations of his lack of knowledge may motivate him. He has to "hit bottom" as we say in recovery.
Don't worry about the fretboard. Give him a musical task that he is interested in and he'll learn what he needs to complete the task. We didn't learn to speak so we could discuss religion, we learned to speak so we could get food and our diapers changed (better than crying, really).
Bottom line though.... if the student doesn't want to, or see a need to learn, he won't, and there not a darn thing you can do about that.
One of the best lessons he may need is that the student who takes charge of their learning learns best.
After teaching for over 35 years, I've seen that most 'motivational' things are more for the ego of the teacher. True, students will benefit, but the key to so many things in life is getting your own butt in gear. And that's a lesson worth teaching.
Bottom line though.... if the student doesn't want to, or see a need to learn, he won't, and there not a darn thing you can do about that.
One of the best lessons he may need is that the student who takes charge of their learning learns best.
After teaching for over 35 years, I've seen that most 'motivational' things are more for the ego of the teacher. True, students will benefit, but the key to so many things in life is getting your own butt in gear. And that's a lesson worth teaching.
The way I was taught and teach my students is to learn on one string the Circle of Fifths and that way you are bouncing around on one string finding the notes by site and not in a scale context which is easier. When they get good they can bounce over the full fretboard.
If fear of the wrong notes and being stuck in "rootville" are problematic try this:
Have him improvise over something, but don't tell him what key or chords it is. Force him to use his ears flying blind.
Maybe run this by him:
'wrong' notes and correcting mistakes from Victor Wooten's "groove workshop"
Have him improvise over something, but don't tell him what key or chords it is. Force him to use his ears flying blind.
Maybe run this by him:
'wrong' notes and correcting mistakes from Victor Wooten's "groove workshop"
