How to give constructive feedback in a way that preserves relationships?

[PauFerro]

I started a new group recently, and its going well. Morale is high.

I have two members that need development in a couple ways. One doesn't read music and therefore, can't be relied upon to front the band for a lot of songs. He's the pavarotti of improvisation though, and has other strengths.

The other is our keyboard player. She joined to learn standards and how to improvise, which she has shown dramatic improvement in doing since day one. But I find she uses the same comping patterns all the time, which could improve. I am not unhappy with either player at this point, but do want to help them improve in these ways.

Curious about the best way to help these people improve their chops in these regards. Specifically, how have other musicians encouraged you to improve, in a way that strengthened your relationship? How have YOU approached other people when they have needed improvement, in a way that isn't discouraging or negative for them., and that worked out?

I have tons of negative ways other musicians have tackled that approach, which has alienated me, and I refuse to use them

a) stopping mid song and pointing out your weakness.
b) pushing and pushing you to learn harder and harder material, faster than you are ready to -- and then making you feel stupid when you can't do it.
c) innuendo -- hints in practice that are kind of ambiguous and leave you wondering specifically what they are getting at.

Thoughts?

 

[jive1]

Give them material to learn that will develop what you're looking for, and put them in situations where they will have to use it.

 

[Awesome Sauce]

Use the Compliment Sandwich. Start with something positive, tell/show where improvement is needed, end with something positive. Yes it's cliche and corny, but it works.

 

[fdeck]

I'm actually grateful when players point out my problems to me, because so few of them will. Maybe they're timid about it, or they don't feel that it's their job to be my teacher. But there was a case with the band that I'm in. Most recently, one member of the trumpet section finally spoke out about my time -- I was just pushing the band way too hard, but they weren't speeding up because the drummer is so solid. So I worked pretty hard to fix that problem.

In another case it wasn't so much about my skills, but I was kinda pushing the band outside of where the bandleader wanted it to be, stylistically.

Something that's widely recommended is to record rehearsals and gigs. I've noticed things in recordings, that the audience would probably never notice, but that point to areas where I need to improve.

I don't know what to say about the non-reader. Reading can be prohibitively difficult to learn, once a person has passed into adulthood and developed other skills that compensate. So you have to be realistic about whether that one will improve.

About the keys player, jazz involves managing 100 different things at once: Melody, harmony, the form, improvisation, interaction, time, the people who just walked in the front door, when's break, etc. A developing player will often fall back on fixed patterns for some of those things, just to manage the information overload. So, developing a more diverse palette might just be a matter of time. On the other hand, you can mention it to her with confidence that you know it will improve. If she asks about ways to develop variety, the best way in my view is listening. The great jazz pianists all had their comping styles. Pick a recorded tune and try to duplicate the comping.

Use the Compliment Sandwich. Start with something positive, tell/show where improvement is needed, end with something positive. Yes it's cliche and corny, but it works.

In business, that's called the **** sandwich, because it's got two slices of bread, with the **** in the middle.

 

[walterw]

hit 'em with your shoe?

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

OKAY MAGGOT!! GIMME 20 ARPEGGIOS. HIT IT.
NEXT TIME YOU PLAY C# WHEN IT SAYS Eb YOU'LL BE RUNNING UP 5 FLIGHTS OF STAIRS WITH AN SVT CLASSIC STRAPPED TO YOU BACK.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?
OKAY, FROM THE TOP YOU USELESS DIRTBAGS. 1, 2, ...

 

[photogdude]

first thing to do, ask them how THEY think they're doing. let them be the originators of the improvement with you as a guide. become a mentor

 

[lfmn16]

No secrets, just don't be a dick.

I like the, "That sounds good, but have you thought about ..." For the keyboard player, I might say, "You know you've got some really good comps going on, but I think it would take the whole band to another level if you added some more for variety." I'm all for learning to read, but I don't understand why someone needs to read to front a band. You could always say, "You're doing such a great job that I'd love to expand your role, but you need to be able to read to do that. Would you have any interest in learning to read?"

Just use common sense, which is getting less and less common.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I'm all for learning to read, but I don't understand why someone needs to read to front a band.

Jazz band. Common to work from sheet music. To direct everyone else you need to read the score. Frontman can wing it but I dont think that was what he meant by ''front a number''.

 

[DirtDog]

I don't think there's one approach that will work in all situations, but lfmn16's "don't be a dick" advice will work every time!!

A leader's gotta know when to push and when it's time to move on to something else.

 

[fdeck]

One thing to consider is that if all of the players are on more or less the same level, then a "lets all improve our skills together" approach might be beneficial. And there are things that we could all improve, such as our sight-reading, knowledge of tunes, etc. You've indicated your own comfort zones, which include needing to rehearse, and to control the repertoire, which are related to one another. The transition from "apprentice" to "journeyman" is different in every genre, but in jazz, it's marked by being able to function as a sideman in an unrehearsed gig. So, one joint goal that you could adopt for your band is to sight-read at least one new tune at each gig.

 

[TheMarkV]

Use the Compliment Sandwich. Start with something positive, tell/show where improvement is needed, end with something positive. Yes it's cliche and corny, but it works.

Gotta admit this is my advice too. just don't leave it at only the negative, start with a compliment first then the criticism in a polite way and another compliment if you have one. Also don't leave the criticism as just criticism, offer a tip or advice if you can and if you can't just say you don't know how you would do it differently specifically but you know they have the ability to switch it up (or whatever) in their own way. "Dont be a dick" is just assumed (unless it's the rare occasion where this is necessary)

 

[MrLenny1]

Don't yell at them.
Be very honest. Life is too short.

 

[Axtman]

I have a thin skin an initially get offended at any critique. But then I get over it and realize that the person wants to help me. If they didn't care they would not offer advice.

So be gentle but go for it.

 

[PauFerro]

Don't like the poop sandwiches anymore. I see what they are doing -- they thought of something negative, and that prompted the need for discussion. IN order to provide lather before the shave, they thought of the complements, which were secondary. I see through it in a heartbeat.

I'm considering a different approach where I bring in a pro to critique the entire band at some point. I did that once years ago -- and the pro ended up in the band a few months later -- that was cool...

 

[FatBoutedGirls]

I like the "open face compliment sandwich." Compliment topped with meat and covered in gravy. So for your keyboard player it's: "You've made great improvement but I think you use that same pattern too often, here's a couple different patterns you should try to incorporate."

That's what I like to hear, that you like me, but I still have deficiencies, here's how to fix it.

 

[kenneffdupriest]

Use the Compliment Sandwich. Start with something positive, tell/show where improvement is needed, end with something positive. Yes it's cliche and corny, but it works.

Been doing this for years and not just with musicians either.

 

[Munjibunga]

I use questions.

"When the lead vocal comes in, could you try switching off the overdrive so you're not overshadowing him?"

"Could you try those accented beats as flams, just to see how it sounds?"

"You might be singing one interval too high - if you came down one, we'd get that close harmony that just dominates. Can we try that?"

"I think you might be a quarter tone flat on that high note EVERY FRIKKIN' TIME! Do you think we should drop the key?"

 

[Vince Klortho]

The "sandwich" can often be effective but not always. The problem is some people are thinner skinned than others so how do you get your point across without alienating them? That is the real challenge. In my experience the key is to be positive. Avoid pointing out what you don't like. Point out what you DO like and then make remarks along the lines of, "I think it would sound better if ...". Telling someone that this or that just doesn't work will rarely be successful.

If someone is open to criticism (as I am) then just state the issue and the best solution and you'll be OK. At least, for me that has worked but I have a very thick skin and I'm open to suggestions.

 

[PauFerro]

I had one musician forgo the bread in the sandwich and just give me the poop. This was many many years ago, but he sent me a Youtube video doing a bossa of a song we had tried in rehearsal. He indicated that it needed sound a certain way.

I would rather have someone tell me that -- directly, than poop sandwich me.

This works well when there is already a good relationship established, though. The criticism can be given all by itself when the context is one of positive experiences, and a good overall relationship.

What I don't like are statements of dissatisfaction without any direction on how to improve -- that REALLY bothers me. I had one guitar player that would say to the entire band "if we're going to perform live, we better take care of a few things". We would say "What?" and then he wouldn't give us a straight answer. Pure arrogance. That is the worst kind of feedback.

Gallup, the research organization that has done some work in positive psychology, said you have to give feedback in a context of a 5:1 ratio of positive, to negative experiences. When that is present, you can give the poop without wrapping it in a sandwich at the moment of constructive criticism...