How to mic-up an ABG for tone.....

[Rockin John]

..... not **just** to make it louder.

This is an experiement to 1) choose a mic, then 2) put it to use to get good acoustic tone from my ABG (Tanglewood TW55 FR). I am naive about both aspects and respectfully seek advice.

My bass is fitted with the usual piezo (Fishman) but I want to try a mic as the piezo sound is a bit 'brittle' to me. The mic needs to be one of those subminiature types that's on a gooseneck, + fixings. The AKG C518 **looks** the sort of thing to use but that seems to be billed as a drum kit mic. Anyhow, something along those lines...

The plan would be to feed it into the mic input of a small, acoustic bass combo (or using other means of getting it into the amp if a mic input isn't available). Amplification need only be loud enough to back a couple of acoustic guitars + V lightly amplified voices.

Wisdom gratefully received.

Ta. J

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Miking an acoustic bass guitar live is very tricky. The problem is that the instrument is not a loud enough one to start with. In order to turn it up, you need to isolate it which is usually not the case live. The mic would pick up everything on stage, and you might even get feedback trying to make the abg louder.

Studio is a complete different story. I'd use a large diaphragm condenser Mic such as the fet 47.

 

[Rockin John]

Thanks. Yes this is strictly live working. Small bar rooms, coffee lounge, etc. I understand about the mic picking up all on stage but this is a minimal amplification project - probably little more than unplugged acoustic guitars and maybe even unamplified voices. And certainly no drums. This means little gain needed for the bass, I suspect.

Appreciate your input.

Ta. J

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Wouldn't bother micing the ABG for live gigs. There's not enough acoustic output and even if there was, you sometimes need to use a sound plug to close the hole and stop feedback. It's also hard to isolate the bass from all the other instruments on stage. And the trickiest thing of all is keeping the mic at the same distance from the sound hole. There are mini-mic devices that attach to the ABG's body, but you're still faced with the same issues mentioned.

As far as the brittle comment - that's a "feature" of some piezo pickups. What works really well for me is to feed the piezo pickup signal through a tube preamp and into your amp. I'm using a Noble DI/preamp and the tone is super warm. Sounds like an upright. My ABG is a Taylor AB-1. My pickup is the newest model of Fishman Matrix.
Invalid Link Removed

In this video I created in studio, I ran the ABG through a Reiner Studio 1200 amp, which has a 3-tube preamp. I've since learned how to capture an even warmer signal. But it gives you an idea. The guitarist/drummer/vocalist was pretty loud by comparison.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

One other point - I actually prefer the mic'd tone of this Taylor AB-1 and use a Peluso 22 251 large diaphragm tube condenser for that task. Have also had great results with a Telefunken M60 small diaphragm FET condenser. But that's ONLY when there are no other instruments playing and in studio. Live is a whole different animal!

I noticed you have a GB Streamliner. I used to have one - I recall it has a 3-tube preamp. I sold mine because the preamp was voiced way too dark for my taste. If you experiment with the Streamliner for this application, keep that voicing issue in mind. What works well for electric bass can be a tonal disaster for acoustic bass. It's one reason why I sold my Reiner Studio 1200. Fabulous amp for rock bass but the preamp voicing wasn't quite right for my ABG requirements.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Head over to the DB forum.

 

[Rockin John]

Thanks, Ukiah Bass. You are correct about the 3 tube preamp in the Streamliner.

The ABG project is something quite new. Despite having the instrument for about 3 years I've never seriously had a play around with the set up, and the one go I had on stage with the Genz was a disaster. I think, naively, at the time, I didn't realise that the ABG was a different animal altogether and that my 'normal' BG settings were totally and utterly wrong for ABG. Neither was I smart enough to spend time experimenting with the sound: I just put the ABG away, blaming it for the failure. (For the rock-type stuff I have the bass dialled fully off on the Genz, that's how dark it is! Still, it works well enough.

As a new project all round, I'm happy to start afresh and consider whatever gear might be appropriate for a really good ABG setup: that could mean a new bass, a new amp, and whatever else might be necessary (I think you responded to my acoustic amp thread, too). Money is not an object - within sensible limits - so that all ideas are in the hat at this point. Being in my mid 60s, I've decided to have one really good shot to get this right and may nip onto the basses forum for ABG purchase wisdom.

(Your instrument sounds good even through my laptop speakers: the strings are black nylon but which brand, plz? I favour D'Addario nylons and may give them another try).

Tks.

J

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

(Your instrument sounds good even through my laptop speakers: the strings are black nylon but which brand, plz? I favour D'Addario nylons and may give them another try).

Tks.

J

They are La Bella Deep Talkin' black nylon tapewounds.

 

[4Mal]

A variable Low Pass Filter (LPF) can help tame quack. Brougton's box with HPF and LPF built in may be helpful. Also you may need some buffer between the bass's preamp and the input of your amp for impedance matching. Maybe the Broughton box does both.

The Radial PZ pre might help as well.
And Dave's Deep Talkin' Flats are a great choice in tape wounds for piezo use. I have them on a Godin Acoustibass and they are sweet. D'Addarios on an Olympia ABG - cheap import, thick top, not real sensitive, string choice seems to matter less.

 

[MakoMan]

You could always use an Irig Acoustic Stage. Actually works very well on an acoustic bass. Also has a feedback cancellation button.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/ik-multimedia-irig-acoustic-stage#productDetail

 

[tfer]

If you aren't worried too much about gear, get your hands on a Zoom A3 pedal.

Use the nylon string model and plug your AEB in.

IME, mic'ing an acoustic bass guitar doesn't work, because of the gain levels required to get a strong enough signal, ESPECIALLY using tapes.

The A3 will tame the piezo quack, and gives you a solid sound that you can build from. It also has a feedback eliminator that works incredibly well.

Fishman systems are tough to listen to, because they are brittle and thin.

 

[Rockin John]

Thanks guys. I've reached the conclusion that micing is not a realistic possibility and I'm not going to pursue this line.

I've also drawn the conclusion that under saddle piezoelectrics of the type commonly used on electro-acoustics is not a very suitable means of extracting a signal from the instrument. There are just too many areas where things can wrong to the detriment of the signal.... but that's another story!

Thanks again, folks. The idea is now officially shelved.

Best.

J

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Fishman systems are tough to listen to, because they are brittle and thin.

This may be true of their older / lower end models. Which is why I upgraded to Invalid Link Removed. Have you personally used this newer, high end model? There's a substantial difference in quality.

 

[tfer]

This may be true of their older / lower end models. Which is why I upgraded to Invalid Link Removed. Have you personally used this newer, high end model? There's a substantial difference in quality.

If they've improved, I'm happy for them, but their systems were unacceptable for so long, that I'd never even consider an instrument containing a Fishman.

 

[Frankjohnson]

This may be true of their older / lower end models. Which is why I upgraded to Invalid Link Removed. Have you personally used this newer, high end model? There's a substantial difference in quality.

I have a solid Rosewood/spruce Epiphone Acoustic with the Matrix in it - I have a Guild and a D35 also. The Epi is hands down the best sounding acoustic - albeit a 6 string - the best of these three. LOVE

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

If they've improved, I'm happy for them, but their systems were unacceptable for so long, that I'd never even consider an instrument containing a Fishman.

That's a pretty closed minded attitude. I'd be careful about condemning a whole class of gear based on past experience with something that doesn't match what they're now shipping. To draw a political analogy, it's like saying "I'd never vote for a Democrat because of what FDR did!" or "I'll never vote for a Republican because of what Nixon did!" etc. etc.

 

[tfer]

Or how about, I'll continue supporting LR Baggs for what they did.

 

[RustyAxe]

I play acoustic basses often. You can see my Tacoma Thunderchief CB10e in my avatar. I don't know what tone you're looking for, but the Tacoma, and my Guild B-50, both give me the "upright-ish" tone I was looking for. Both are strung with nylon tape wounds. The Tacoma has a Baggs under saddle piezo to their preamp. The Guild has a JJB under the bridge (like a K&K). Typically these are used on acoustic concert type gigs ... so I use my GK MB200 to a GB STL-8 cab, DI'd to FOH if necessary. By far the biggest contributor to my tone (a clean fundamental thump with minimal sustain) is technique. Where I play the string and how I attack the string makes a world of difference.

Mic'ing an ABG for the stage is a fool's errand, as you've come to learn.

 

[Rockin John]

Thanks guys.

Rusty Axe makes interesting points because I'm not an experienced ABG / EABG player at all.

As for 'my desired tone' I do not seek to get the ABG to sound like an upright bass: only an upright sounds like an upright! I want clarity of tone, which is what I'd hope for from an expensive bass with great construction and a great pickup system. Of course, tone is subjective.....

FWIW, my Tanglewood TW 55 FR is fitted with the Fishman Presys system. I'm not sure how good this unit is, but I'm not over impressed with it!

Ta.

J

 

[tfer]

Thanks guys.

Rusty Axe makes interesting points because I'm not an experienced ABG / EABG player at all.

As for 'my desired tone' I do not seek to get the ABG to sound like an upright bass: only an upright sounds like an upright! I want clarity of tone, which is what I'd hope for from an expensive bass with great construction and a great pickup system. Of course, tone is subjective.....

FWIW, my Tanglewood TW 55 FR is fitted with the Fishman Presys system. I'm not sure how good this unit is, but I'm not over impressed with it!

Ta.

J

It's the Fishman causing you problems.

I have no idea how costly it is to replace, but I have yet to hear a manufacterer installed Fishman that was worth a crap.