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How to Succeed as an Original Band

Want to see Tom Richards Live and In person? Tomorrow, April 10th, 11am-1pm at the Brookdale Guitar Show, Brookdale Community College, Lincroft NJ. Admission to the show is $15 at the door, $10 if you bring a guitar to sell or trade.

The show is one of the better ones on the east coast, with a great mix of vintage dealers and local guitar shops, along with several local luthiers and amp manufacturers.

And of course, free workshops and panels, including me with Vini "Mad Dog" Lopez of the E Street Band doing everything Danelectro!
 
Finally got thru this thread, and although I am a 40-something lifelong weekend warrior doing only covers, there is a lot here as far as professionalism, marketing, recruiting, that equally apply to my world versus the original world. Business, is business, is it not after all?

Kudos to TR for getting this going, and I'll continue to be a regular reader.

Someone should start a "how to succeed as a weekend warrior" thread. Not me, but someone with much more time than me.
 
Hey to everyone on this thread I wanna thank you for your time and effort posting. I cant wait to start playing gigs, hopefully i have a band here lined up but i do have a question for the experienced guys here and that is; How does a band agree on what sound they want. Like genre an such, is it the main songwriter or a conglomerate of influences from each band member. I'm looking to start a band but I don't want to start it with the wrong people. I find it very difficult to find people who like my stuff (although it's not really that wierd lol) and play well.
 
Hey to everyone on this thread I wanna thank you for your time and effort posting. I cant wait to start playing gigs, hopefully i have a band here lined up but i do have a question for the experienced guys here and that is; How does a band agree on what sound they want. Like genre an such, is it the main songwriter or a conglomerate of influences from each band member. I'm looking to start a band but I don't want to start it with the wrong people. I find it very difficult to find people who like my stuff (although it's not really that wierd lol) and play well.

In an idealistic world, the band sound would be a democratic process. Okay, now time for real life....


No, kidding. Band sound usually comes from the influences of the band and the personalities and talents of the band. Clearly, if you are writing and playing something that should sound like old school punk you should sound like the Ramones, not Ramona the lady GaGa cover chick.

The lead singer and primary songwriter usually writes in a certain style and sound, so that is what you will most likely turn out sounding like.

If you want to do something a little radical, find one or two non-musical trusted friends and play a few songs for them. Then ask them which ones they liked best and which ones sounded best to them. THAT should be your target sound.

For many years the stuff I wrote never floated well with the band I was in on the major label. No big whoop. I just kept playing the stuff that gave us three albums and label support. A lot of what I've written then I've been pulling out of the closet and repackaging and its gotten a super reception now.

There is no right or wrong people from a musical perspective. You will know if you blend as a band or not. The only ones to avoid are 1)Druggies of any kind. 2) People who cannot wait until after the show to get hammered 3) People who think they are much better then they really are and 4) family members.

So, I look forward to hearing your music and your band. Don't sweat the "right member" thing. You will find the right people when the time for you and your music is right.

tom
 
Finally got thru this thread, and although I am a 40-something lifelong weekend warrior doing only covers, there is a lot here as far as professionalism, marketing, recruiting, that equally apply to my world versus the original world. Business, is business, is it not after all?

Kudos to TR for getting this going, and I'll continue to be a regular reader.

Someone should start a "how to succeed as a weekend warrior" thread. Not me, but someone with much more time than me.

Welcome to the fray! Thank you for the kind words. Yes, by and large a lot of the advice here applies to both genre's of music. Cover bands that have a "look" and a "style" usually do much better then the guys who show up looking like they just left the beach, basement or garage and showed up to play a gig.

I would think that you would get some interesting advice for a "weekend warrior" thread, however I don't know if I'd wade in that stream. LOL!

If you have any specific questions that you think are unique to the cover side, just ask them here from that perspective. I'll answer for you the best I can and I know several of the readers of this thread who are in active touring cover bands will chime in as well.

Just do me a favor, please, please, please do not play "Brown Sugar, Start Me Up or Zep's Rock and Roll." Ever. I don't care if the cougars like those songs, they to me just can never be pulled off by anyone but the original artist. They also make you sound super dated. Instead, stick to classic rock songs that you will find on Rock Band, Guitar Hero and other games like that. ALL the kids know 'em and have grown to like 'em. So you will still play music you liked growing up and you will have a much larger audience. Crap, I'm always amazed at how many 21 year olds really love kicking' it to "The Devil Went Down to Georgia." Never knew they even knew that song period.

Also, the Beatles are very big with the younger crowds right now. Just stay away from later, mellower stuff. I find that Rubber Soul period stuff along with some Sgt. Peppers and of course very early Beatles really goes over in the clubs well. A band I sat in with about a month ago decided to throw "She Loves You" in to a set. Wow did the crowd, mostly youngsters, really dig it. I was stunned.

Have fun. Keep reading.

tom
 
What type of music a person plays should not mattter. I have learned something from each area a player comes from. I find that players who bash on players for not playing in the same kind of band are cheated because they refuse to look at the other side of the coin. if you play covers, or songs written by a bandmate it does not make one right and the other wrong. If you a truly in it for the music, then it shoud not matter where the advice come from. Why do we have to take sides?
 
Just do me a favor, please, please, please do not play "Brown Sugar, Start Me Up or Zep's Rock and Roll."

tom

+10000 on that. no 'stang sally, no brown-eyed girl either.

We do acoustic-based covers that no one else we know does. Not so obscure that no one has heard them, many were top-40 in their day, just haven't been overdone by everyone else. I like to think its best not to drink from the same well as all the other bands in our area. That's the niche we've decided to inhabit.
 
Cover bands that have a "look" and a "style" usually do much better then the guys who show up looking like they just left the beach, basement or garage and showed up to play a gig.
tom


Tom

You are spot on there. We always change before going on stage even in the most flea bitten dives. You never know who is watching you and they might just want to book you for some swanky gig. It has happened quite a few times over the years. Wearing something to differentiate you from the crowd can only be a good thing.

Years ago our stage set was black trousers and shoes, white shirts and black waistcoats. We were playing a high class wedding reception and were chilling backstage before our first set when the head waiter came and tore us off a strip for slacking. He had mistaken us for waiters, we changed our outfits after that to something a bit brighter.

As for song choice, we always say we will never play Mustang Sally again but if someone twist our singers arm enough (and is female and pretty) then he will call it. Brown Eyed Girl is a regular for us, not every gig but most. One song I never want to do again is Hi-Ho Silver Lining (Jeff Beck), I have to sing it and play lead so it involves guitar swapping. It always goes down well but I have just played it too many times.
 
New Lesson for today...what to do when the leader of your group or one of the weenies wants to immediately post everything.

For an original band, instant gratification and success do NOT go hand in hand. With the plethora of instant media, there is a great temptation to fire anything and everything onto YouTube, Facebook, MySpace and Reverbnation the second you have something even remotely acceptable. For original bands, and to some degrees cover bands, this is going to lead you to nowhere fast, to the land of has beens and unsuccessful.

Honest, decent feedback is definitely necessary in the songwriting and band maturing process, and the media provided today make it possible to get that a plenty. So, you have to really, really, really be careful what you throw up, literally and figuratively.

There is a drunken answering machine message on YouTube that has been making the rounds of many major market radio stations. That poor girl who left the message is probably going to need therapy the rest of her life, especially since the caller has been identified and is now known to the world. You can't make this a reality show or even a publicity stunt. This girl is now the laughing stock of the world.

Same will go for your YouTube postings. I have been informally advising a local band on their general performance and stage show, as well as on some of the points here. The last show they did was that Break contest I have alluded to here and on other threads. When they showed up to play they basically ignored everything I had worked with them on, telling me that they knew better. I of course reminded them that I've been there age, but they ain't been mine....

They were eliminated in the very first round of the contest, and also it turned out they didn't even sell half of the tickets they needed to (20 @ $12 each). They didn't follow any of my advice on selling the tix, didn't follow any of my recommendation on getting or bringing an audience, and a whole host of other performance related things. So, they wound up playing their contest set to an almost empty club. Since part of the contest is based on crowd voting, obviously they started out in a bad way.

The other advice they ignored was my edict to have a look, and to have a complete set rehearsed in order with limited breaks and to have their entire in between babble scripted and rehearsed. They showed up looking like any kid walking the streets and had a completely non-scripted and rehearsed set. The music sounded like crap, as well as their stage show.

Why am I telling you this? Because two people in the crowd had videotaped the entire performance and guess what is up on YouTube? Two different versions of the crappiest song performances ever, recorded on what sounds like a cell phone or instamatic digital camera and it included voices of their friends in the crowd making fun of them. I originally thought that the fans had put them up. Nope, wanna guess who put them on YouTube? YEP! The band!

If you want to be a band it is important to get your music out there to be able to build a following and to be able to get better at what you do. But like very famous artists, you MUST protect yourselves and what goes up on any media website or forum. There are polite ways to ask your friends to remove or not post things you do not approve of prior to posting. You can and should screeen everything a bazillion times before you post it. And you should post it with a purpose. Don't just throw it up because you feel like it.

The internet makes it very possible to build an image, following and band at a very low budget, in a quicker time then in years past, and with huge reach. But you must, must, must, must, must treat your minternet presence like it was a billion dollar gold bar.

The old adage is, "haste makes waste." I prefer to say it as "haste lays waste." Because in this case, it does. You should approve anything posted. You should only post the best you have, and over time only the best of the best of the best. You should encourage your friends and followers to send video and live recordings of you to you, not post them. Start a giveaway contest or something so that it is more rewarding for them to give you the stuff and let you post it then let them post it without your control.

The next time someone in your original band's phone rings and its a ringtone of one of your songs and it sounds like crap, take that guy out back behind the woodshed and ...........

You have been warned.
 
Fantastic thread, and a week later i've read through it all!

I really like the last post, and it is very timely for me. I've spent the past week working my butt off on a demo for my new band, which is coming out great, and I can't wait to put it out there for folks to check out. But i'm going to wait awhile. There are a few things we need to get together before I do, and I recognize that, even if I want to spam everyone with our catchy new tunes.

I've been playing for 20 years, gigging for ten, early as just a solo singer/songwriter and much more in the past few years as a bass player and drummer. I've had original bands get through the first year or so and working towards 'success', but lineup situations or other factors have always halted these projects. I always prefer original projects, though I did a couple of years with a band that became a cover band.

Right now i'm engaged with the most promising act i've ever had the fortune to be a part of. I've spent the past few months working with a young and very talented local artist, helping him arrange his songs, writing new material, and now recording and producing it. He has everything you would want in a frontman; an amazing voice, catchy hooks, brilliant stage presence and general charisma. Best of all we have become very good friends. I have been focusing mainly on drums for this project, but as of a couple of days ago it looks like we might have a ridiculously talented young drummer taking my spot so I can focus on bass (my favorite) and singing harmonies.

I am quite a bit older than both of these cats, in fact my daughter is closer to their age, but the chemistry is amazing and fortunately I can pass for my twenties anyhow. Although in some respects the age thing might be against me, mostly it is the other way around; I have tons of gear, lots of experience and wisdom with bands, writing music and playing multiple instruments. These skills i've honed over the years I simply would not have had a dozen years ago, and it's quite cool to be able to offer them to this project.

Im very thankful for the advice i've read in this thread. A lot of it is familiar, some of it is new, and all of it is educational. I am going to be putting a lot of this information to use in the next couple of months, over the summer, and the next couple of years. My gut is telling me that i'm on to something big here, and everyone who knows that I am working with this artist can't wait to see what we do. Our debut gig is June 4th, a 45 minute set at a local festival, perfect for what we are doing. I have a lot of connections in this state to start putting to work, and soon!

So i'll be posting stuff on this site for anyone who is interested, as well as keeping up with the new info on this thread. For now our biggest hurdle is coming up with a band name. Don't you just love that? We have a few on the boards, but it can be so hard....

And to add my advice to this whole discussion, I would restate the value of shedding, working very hard to hone the elements of your craft (be it playing, songwriting, or both, or more!), give it everything you have, and have no expectations. Live for the now, it's the process that matters, not the product. I can't emphasize that enough. Stay focused, and if your heart and mind are in the right places, you have the essential basics covered in this thread, and you are willing to do what is necessary, I truly believe anything can happen. So don't give up!
 
Welcome djero44! Very good advice, and I am glad that this post gave you something to think about.

New nugget, or is it easter egg :)


Sometimes its just better to take a step back.

Everyone wants success. Everyone would love to be then next Rolling Stones, U2, Pearl Jam, Maroon 5, whatever. If we are serious, we pour our hearts, minds and souls into each and every project. We nuture and support it, build it like it was our only, best, child. We will selflessly and selfishly defend it until we finally are out of breath, worn, tired, a little crazy and hopelessly lost.

Every once and a while a good original band will take a day or two or three, and take a step back. First, take a break from the music and band mates to refresh and remember that you have a life and you actually are someone. And that there are other things that should have a level of importance in your life besides the music.

And at that point the band needs to take stock of where you are, where you are versus where you thought you'd be, are you going in the direction you thought and are you going to make your goal. And them ask yourself (yourselves) what if we just ended the band? What if we took the band in a totally different direction?

It is very hard to take a good, hard honest look without first getting away from the music and guys and refreshing yourself as a person. When you have done that, you can take a look at your band. I have many times lost sight of the goal just because I immersed my self worth and desire for success into every project/band. I was so invested in the band, in working the booking, touring, instrument care and song writing recording that I never took the time to ask, "How do you feel about your situation?" "Are you spending too much time on something that isn't going even close to a way you need to?"

We often will ride a band beyond the point of its extinction, because we cannot look at it objectively and say its time to retool or let it die. We cannot admit this, and we look at dissolving a band we have placed our heart, soul, blood sweat and tears into as a failure. It is nearly impossible at those points to remember that the Beatles did not form once and immediately and go on to be successful from there. They changed members, they merged members. They had different names.

I always remember the story about how Fred Smith left the original Blondie to join Television with Tom Verlaine. Television, while critically acclaimed, went nowhere. Blondie, well, we all know. But Blondie with Fred Smith could never have become the Blondie we all know. Crosby Stills Nash and Young are legendary. And to think, the Byrds and Buffaloe Springfield had to die for us to get CSNY.

Every once in a while, take a step back. Recharge your batteries and refresh your outlook on life. Reconnect with family and friends. Then take some time to look at your band from a distance. Ask yourself the questions. Once you answer them, you will know where to go. And most likely that will mean you are on the road to success.
 
I haven't been "gigging" for 10 years but
in the past 10 years the industry has change in big ways
in the past 2 years the industry has change in big ways
2 years from now the industry will have changed in big ways
if I knew 2 years ago what I knew now I would be rich
but we all would wouldn't we?

I have been "gigging" for about 4 years now and touring for 2
Not every method works for every band, not every method works for every genre

I came up through what is now called "the scene" and have learned a few things
These are all my personal opinions from my own personal experience

Promote: You can write the best and most catchy songs in the world but if you don't get off your butt and promote yourself you will never get anywhere. Today that is easier then ever. With confidence I can say the majority of my band's fanbase was from Me and my singer spending hours and hours a day messaging people on different social networking website and asking people to take a listen to our music. We got all kinds of insults and what not but we got results

Do everything as best as you can: Remember, there are hundreds of bands out there just like you trying to do the same thing you are. You could get prmos photos of you all done by your mom with her digital camera, OR you can cough up $200-$400 bucks and get a professional photographer to do your photos. Which photos are going to help your image? Do you want to look like you are doing this as a hobby or do you want to come off as professionals?

Touring: Get out there and do it. Its expensive but it will give you life experience. It's a whole new ball game when compared to playing local gigs. I have seen many musicians quit after their first tour. Its not for everyone. There is a lot of driving, you get a little sleep. You will probably end up sleeping in the van. You will smell bad and will probably be hungry. But if you end up enjoying it, then you know you are in the right place.

Personal Sacrifices: This is probably the biggest and hardest one to deal with. Being in an active original band is expensive. You will have to learn to control your ego, I would say a good 90% of all band fights I have seen all stem from ego issues. There will be time when you have to dumb your music down. Not everybody is a musician, and they wont appreciate somethings as much as you do.
The wisest thing I was ever told was from an extremely good producer that we just recorded with named Kevin Gates: "There is a line between what you really want to do as a musician and what will sell. You have to find a way to walk on that line"
 
Thanks for the great advice SuperFineLin9!

Today's teachable moment from me:

Original means original. Not a clone of someone else.

I went to a showcase on Sunday and saw 8 bands that were all almost identical. That "punk" that has very little singing and a lot of that "satanic" screaming. You know, like a billion other bands that are around. Yes, its popular with some crowd, but overall they all sounded exactly the same.

Kudos for being able to understand and reproduce the genre with perfect technicality. Now, go do something completely original!

Why is GaGa soooo successful? Because she has taken a genre (Madonna, as she is an artist and a genre all to herself) and she has morphed it into something even more original. Now, I'm not a big fan of Steph, but she has taken and immitated Madonna perfectly but put a new, original spin on it.

Going old school, Social Distortion has all the elements of the southern Cali punk movement that came out of Black Flag, the Minutemen, yada yada, but the "roots" and "country" twinge was and is very, very original. No one else sounds like them. They are original.

U2. One of a billion of the post-punk "new wave, romantic" bands of the 1980's. But they sound nothing like anyone else and have a very original take on music.

But you may ask, "How do you do something original? Can you show me how?" Well no, but yes.

Go buy some old, old, old, old records/CDs. Listen to them until you are nearly dead from it. Then try and figure out what elements of that would translate well today with an update. And do it.

Rush basically took all the prog rock of the 70's (ELP, Renaissance, King Crimson) and added a pop edge. The two styles had never mixed really well before Rush. And guess what? You got prog rock that was accessible to the masses. ORIGINAL!

Dick Dale. King of the Surf guitar. You can still listen to all of his early stuff and definitely feel and hear the surf music craze from his time. But all that feedback, distortion and the like? Totally original. He knew the genre down pat, then added a little something he heard from other artists, mostly blues artists.

So, next time you get a chance, go see a showcase of bands in the style you like to listen to and play. Listen for everything that makes them sound like and be clones. And don't do that.

Original bands. They key is original, not band.
 
This is all awesome info! Everyday I deal with the kinds of things brought up here and everyday I use the advice and wisdom or the post that are here! I thank everyone for their awesomeness and I thank Mr. Richards for starting the awesomeness!

...if I could only turn your "awesomeness" quote into some "wealthiness". ;)

You are welcome. I am glad this thread has helped you, and thank you for reading it.

Guess I'll add your quote to my musical resume...:D
 
Tonight's lesson is stolen from another thread here:

Lawyers suck, but you still need 'em.

The part about being in an original band that is so great is that you are creating your own music, your own songs, your own voice. You get to sit and pour your soul out and turn it into something others want to hear.

And everyone wants to make a buck off it and you.

Enter the lawyers.

One thing every up and coming band should try to do is find a friendly or family member lawyer who will draw up simple contracts for you gratis or at least give you a very large discount. They don't need to be complicated, but simple agreements such as how money is split, who owns what piece of songs you write together, what happens if you leave or are removed from the band, what things can remove you from the band.

Part of what makes you successful, especially long term, is understanding the legal and business relationships you have in the band. Once everyone understands that then life if usually good. Most bands break up over the stupid stuff, usually over things like Jimmy got $5 more from the last gig then I did. Doesn't matter that Jimmy spent $10 of his own money on that guys beer that he wasn't supposed to get at the club.

A good, simple contract makes life soooo much easier, and actually leads to better opportunities for success. Success comes from being prepared and learning. Understanding the legal part and trying to learn from the lawyer is the best way.

Love ya'll!
 
First off: TR, if you are ever in Chicago, I owe you a drink sir.

I'm not sure what inspired me to check the Band Management section 2 days ago, but HOLY CRAP am I glad I did. This thread alone has lit a fire under my ass for my latest project like nothing else. I read every single post. All I can say is THANK YOU! to everyone who has contributed to this. I have started using the information in this thread to help my band get to the next level and the improvement is amazing after only 1 rehearsal.


My current Rig and Resume:
79' Westbury Track 2 (hipshot bridge, bartonlini PU)
Reeves Custom 225
Reeves 4x10

I'm 27, originally from central VA. Moved to Chicago in 07.

Been playing guitar since I was 9 when I found my mom's old Kay acoustic (she never learned to play, it was a gift from my grandfather in the 70s) in our basement and learned the opening riff to "Come as You Are". I was hooked, but never felt like I was meant to be a guitarist.
In high school I had the "ah-ha!" moment when a friend's ska band had a bass but no bass player. "Guitar without the tiny strings? I got this!"
Once I felt that gut hit of a low E come from my hands I knew what I wanted to do for the rest of my musical career. Traded my Squire Bullet for a Squire P-Bass that week.
About 2 weeks later, that band was no more.
Lucky for me, I was friends with two brothers (a guitar player and a drummer) who's parents had 1) A large basement and 2) Unequaled patience and tolerance for loud teenagers.

From Slayer to Wild Cherry we played whatever we wanted to, however we wanted to. We eventually started writing orignal songs about anything that we liked. I've never been in such an openly creative process since then. No genre, no style, no reservations. The songs we wrote with my high school band are burned in my mind and my fingers just fall into position whenever I pick up a bass, aching to play those songs.


That was 12 years ago and now I realize how utterly terrible our songs actually sounded back then BUT I will say one thing about then:
We had so much FUN together, and enjoyed EVERY SECOND of playing music with each other to such an extent that the audience could see it and hear it in the songs. That's one of the greatest things about being in a band with friends, and also what makes being in a band with complete strangers such a tough pill to swallow. My old band still gets invites for gigs back home because we were that much fun to watch on stage, and in a city of 70k, people remember much longer than they should.

My current band was formed 100% through Craigslist over the course of 3 years full of auditions, flakes, no shows, and really great musicians that, unfortunately just didn't 'fit'.

So here is my question for you more experienced guys who have formed bands with people from Want-ads and listings:

How do you get that element of enjoyment and freedom so we can stop 'walking on eggshells' when we are writing new songs?
Don't get me wrong, I love the music my band is making, but I feel like what we could be doing as a whole is SO much more original than the driving rock with pop vocals we are doing right now. Just to state, the guitarists(who have both been in successful original bands with songs on video game soundtracks/commericals, etc) and drummer are probably the best I've ever played with personally. The singer/keyboard/frontman has the look and the voice but not quite the presence needed, but we are working on it. He's also the one with the least experience in performing, but is improving massively with each show (opinion of folks who have seen all of our shows so far).

Whenever I bring new riffs or ideas that a in a slightly different style than we usually play, they get shot down without so much as a "lets jam on it and see where it goes".
I feel like everyone is so worried about playing something that sounds too _______ so no one takes a risk. "Oh thats too metal/core/ballady" or "Na, too Fat-Wreckordsy" are common phrases.

No one wants to offend, and no one wants to be offended so we are ending up in this middle of the road "well I know this chord progression/riff works from previous experience/music theory knowledge so lets do it and move along".

So long story short, how do you guys "shake things up" with more experienced musicians in order to keep it from getting stale? Especially with people you don't have a huge history with. Nothing would pain me more than to see a band with such huge potential/talent fall to mediocrity because we were to afraid to take a musical "risk".

Thoughts?
 
This is an awesome thread and I'm still reading through it.

I've never succeeded in an original band, but I've worked for successful musicians in non-musical capacities. The one thing that I haven't read yet in this thread (it may be there, I haven't read them all) is the idea of having a story.

Excluding teen pop stars and the 99% of bands that have success lasting the duration of a shooting star, take a look at bands/singers/writers who have sustained careers for 5, 10, 20 years or more. What you might call REAL success, even if they are not household names. You'll frequently see that these people make records and tour based on a "story" and that it changes with each project.

A story doesn't have to be a big deal. You just have to have something to sell the music with, besides just music. It can be recording collaborations, a record covering a particular writer, an old group's first live record, a tribute project, a makeover, a record for kids, first record in ten years... always focusing on having a story to promote.

A story isn't just for geezers, they can be a useful tool for anybody. Everybody knows what music school Lady Gaga went to, even if they haven't listened to her, right?

A lot of people "make it" and have a hit record and play on Conan and think they have arrived, and then ten minutes later they are your barista. Take a look at the people who make it, over and over, and you'll start seeing some of the recipes.

Just a thought to add to the pile.
 
This one's for you BarryRay.

Not a lot you can do. One of the things a lot of successful musicians do time and time again is stay in their comfort zone. In one way, its good, in another way, its bad.

The good: if it has worked before, and kept the mortgage paid and some gas in the tank, it will continue to do that. Lets you stay a working musician instead of an unemployed musician.

The bad: You lose the ability to move from good to great. Without taking a risk you won't get the big reward.

Now, as for your personal situation, the best thing to do is to record your ideas so the others can hear them before you try 'em out. Let them shoot them down, but ask them to be more specific. I've heard more times then I can imagine someone say my songs were, "not punk enough" or "too Jersey Shore." When I would ask them what specifically, they could never really point to it. What it turns out is that their experience and personal tastes were really what they were putting out there. So, to one person punk is the Ramones, to another its Henry Rollins. And if I were to write a song like the Ramones, the Rollins crowd would not take to it.

The other interesting dynamic is that the singer/leader of your band is successful and is the leader. In most situations, they have evolved to that point and are protective of their turf. Leaders don't like to be followers. Most leaders, in any endeavor in life, follow THEIR vision. They may be open to hearing something different, but often reject it quickly because accepting it will derail their own inner confidence.

Usually, over time, these guys become musical dinosaurs.

Not sure if that helped ya, but again, if you really think you can add something, then you need to record your idea and let everyone hear it first. For a couple of bucks you can either get the right software or something like the Zoom R24 to use as a sketch pad.

I like the suggestion above about a "mentor", however there are very few George Martin's out there. There seem to be many more Steve Martins....