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How to Succeed as an Original Band
- Thread starter TRichardsbass
- Start date
Actually, the message about leading and ruling are relevant in most other businesses, not just the music industry.
Dekker
Dekker
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Here is a lesson that I just taught a new band here on the shore:
Always remember you sound better to the audience then you do to yourselves, and also remember that no matter how good the audience says you were, you still suck.
Don't believe your own press is one of the sayings that is similar. One person's ear candy is another's vinegar. No matter how good you think you are, no matter how good people say you are, remember you can always improve and always be better.
Conversely, no matter how bad you think you sound, the musician in you will always be hyper self-critical. Not that you shouldn't know when it kicked and when it didn't, but you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. All musicians have off days. All bands have their maturing period. As humans, personally we all suck a lot more then we excel. Its just that way life is.
So if you want to be a successful original band, never stop improving your sound, your songs, your image and your stage presence. Don't be overly critical of every mistake or bad performance. Learn from it and improve. No matter how great one reviewer says you are just take it in stride. No matter how crappy they say you were, take it in stride.
People who succeed, especially original bands, have all heard more times then not how bad/weird/stuoid they were. Les Claypool and Primus were NOT immediate hits or superstars. I saw an early showcase and watched several label guys leave shaking their heads. Primus is an acquired taste, to say the least. Now Les is well respected and has some fame. Had he listened and believed what people originally said, he'd probably be in a wedding band today.
So that's the nugget. You aren't as bad as you think, and you aren't as good as you think.
Always remember you sound better to the audience then you do to yourselves, and also remember that no matter how good the audience says you were, you still suck.
Don't believe your own press is one of the sayings that is similar. One person's ear candy is another's vinegar. No matter how good you think you are, no matter how good people say you are, remember you can always improve and always be better.
Conversely, no matter how bad you think you sound, the musician in you will always be hyper self-critical. Not that you shouldn't know when it kicked and when it didn't, but you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. All musicians have off days. All bands have their maturing period. As humans, personally we all suck a lot more then we excel. Its just that way life is.
So if you want to be a successful original band, never stop improving your sound, your songs, your image and your stage presence. Don't be overly critical of every mistake or bad performance. Learn from it and improve. No matter how great one reviewer says you are just take it in stride. No matter how crappy they say you were, take it in stride.
People who succeed, especially original bands, have all heard more times then not how bad/weird/stuoid they were. Les Claypool and Primus were NOT immediate hits or superstars. I saw an early showcase and watched several label guys leave shaking their heads. Primus is an acquired taste, to say the least. Now Les is well respected and has some fame. Had he listened and believed what people originally said, he'd probably be in a wedding band today.
So that's the nugget. You aren't as bad as you think, and you aren't as good as you think.
I agree completely.
I have a separate take on this, its related to sound checks.
The lead singer and main driving force behind my band is not a sound guy. Most of the people who attend our shows are friends and family, not sound guys. The occasional drunk in a bar that we are playing is not a sound guy. Yet, inevitably, every gig, our singer after the first song or two songs will ask the "audience" things like "how's the mix out there?". Now god bless him, I love this guy, he's really talented, and I have talked to him about this, but what does he expect to get back from the audience, other than "Yeah, sounds great, or "sounds like crap"? Either way, not really helpful to know how me might need to tweak the PA. Now, we don't make a lot of money on gigs, so its not like we have our own sound guy (yet), so I have asked him to let me, the only person in the band who uses a wireless system, to at least go out into the room to check sound during the sound check, or first song when we don't have that luxury. Just a minor rant about never asking the audience how you sound, because its a futile question.
I have a separate take on this, its related to sound checks.
The lead singer and main driving force behind my band is not a sound guy. Most of the people who attend our shows are friends and family, not sound guys. The occasional drunk in a bar that we are playing is not a sound guy. Yet, inevitably, every gig, our singer after the first song or two songs will ask the "audience" things like "how's the mix out there?". Now god bless him, I love this guy, he's really talented, and I have talked to him about this, but what does he expect to get back from the audience, other than "Yeah, sounds great, or "sounds like crap"? Either way, not really helpful to know how me might need to tweak the PA. Now, we don't make a lot of money on gigs, so its not like we have our own sound guy (yet), so I have asked him to let me, the only person in the band who uses a wireless system, to at least go out into the room to check sound during the sound check, or first song when we don't have that luxury. Just a minor rant about never asking the audience how you sound, because its a futile question.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Its okay to rant, as you are correct. I would definitely ask leader boi to stop asking that question. He would be better saying something like " "Are you feelin' alright?". But definitely never ask them how your sound is.
Either way, true and good. Instead of asking permission, ask forgiveness. Just listen to sound check anyway off stage, then apologize for doing it.Or, at the right point of the first song, go off stage and right back on. Worst that can happen is you find out about the sound and then leader dude has a hissy fit after the show.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
New piece for today.
First, let me say I am now a happily married bass man rock star! My wife is encouraging me to do something even more in music, so we will be doing that soon!
Okay, post for the day. One poster here asked us all for reviews of the video and recording they did, maybe to use as a promo vid. From that comes this:
Your promo vid, as an original band, has to be like a rock and roll gala video. What I mean by that is if you are going to make a promo vid for using in your press kit, it has to be your produced music over a very decently edited and touched video, that includes many live shots and lots, lots, lots, lots of crowd with big happy smiles and lots of drinks or red cups. Seriously. No one will get excited about you if the video is just you. If I'm a label, or a club, or tour manager, and you want my attention, you have to give me a reason. Crowd happiness? Reason. Fun? Reason. Look great on stage? Reason. Snippets of your best songs over video works best. The famous quote is, "Always leave 'em wanting more." That is what your promo vid should do.
As an original band, its highly critical that people, labels and clubs see you as a band that generates excitement and has a crowd. Is there a better place then on your promo vid? One thing you can do is get great fans (maybe a little tipsy) to give an on camera review. First couple of hot chicks and one dude who scream, "Amazing! These guys rock!" Go in the vid with the commentary.
This works as well for cover bands, but is sooooooo much more important to get right for original bands. Especially when you or your booking agent are trying to get gigs out of town, this type of snippet vid goes a long way.
Thats my two pennies for today. Back to the new wife.....
First, let me say I am now a happily married bass man rock star! My wife is encouraging me to do something even more in music, so we will be doing that soon!
Okay, post for the day. One poster here asked us all for reviews of the video and recording they did, maybe to use as a promo vid. From that comes this:
Your promo vid, as an original band, has to be like a rock and roll gala video. What I mean by that is if you are going to make a promo vid for using in your press kit, it has to be your produced music over a very decently edited and touched video, that includes many live shots and lots, lots, lots, lots of crowd with big happy smiles and lots of drinks or red cups. Seriously. No one will get excited about you if the video is just you. If I'm a label, or a club, or tour manager, and you want my attention, you have to give me a reason. Crowd happiness? Reason. Fun? Reason. Look great on stage? Reason. Snippets of your best songs over video works best. The famous quote is, "Always leave 'em wanting more." That is what your promo vid should do.
As an original band, its highly critical that people, labels and clubs see you as a band that generates excitement and has a crowd. Is there a better place then on your promo vid? One thing you can do is get great fans (maybe a little tipsy) to give an on camera review. First couple of hot chicks and one dude who scream, "Amazing! These guys rock!" Go in the vid with the commentary.
This works as well for cover bands, but is sooooooo much more important to get right for original bands. Especially when you or your booking agent are trying to get gigs out of town, this type of snippet vid goes a long way.
Thats my two pennies for today. Back to the new wife.....
Hey Tom, thanks for keeping this thread alive. A while bak you wrote about always being ready to promote your band, I did a quick search, but I'm at work and don't have time to find the exact comment. Last Saturday, we had a gig at a new bar for us. After the first set the guitarist says" Cool, the dude from Best Buy showed up". I said I didn't recall him having a friend that worked there, and he said no its the guy that was standing next to him yesterday when he was looking at cd's. Later in the evening he pointed out the couple that was getting gas at the pump next to him that morning. I saw him talking to Best Buy guy and I assume he talked with the gas station couple. This is word of mouth promotion at its best, from now on EVERYONE will know when and where we are playing.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Okay, I'm off the soapbox, although some of those posts in the pot thread were entertaining!
New idea today:
"Fake it till you make it."
Now I'll explain how to actually do it. Many people don't understand how to walk this tightrope, however it is absolutely critical to success.
You need to believe, in your soul, that you are successful and that everything you do will lead in some way to your success. Even the failures. The greatest people in the history of the world, and especially music, have all believed they would succeed, and looked at failures as just a bump on the way to winnning. That is not to say you should just brush them off like nothing happened, but you need to acknowledge they did happen, figure out why, and then take that to improve on the next attempt.
For example, I managed a band that believed that people were coming to see them for their outrageous stage show. They kept getting more and more outrageous until it really just got stupid. At the last show they did they didn't notice that the normal crowd had become half what it had been. Then, the lead singer decided halfway through the show to take all his clothes off except his underwear. Within two minutes everyone left. Why? A number of reasons, but lets just say huge hairy protrusions out your tighty whiteys coupled with stains and then a performance too distracting to care pretty much sealed the deal. The only thing worse would have been had they spit or peed on the crowd. Two days later, at a band meeting, the lead singer and the two guitar players were acting like they just did the best show ever. The drummer and bass player were arguing the opposite. The three didn't want to believe that it was a disaster, so they just went on like nothing happened. The band never got booked again. To this day the lead singer still doesn't understand why. He never learned and grew.
The other part of faking it is in being confident without being egotistical or arrogant. It is normal for everyone to have fears and real doubts. Its okay to have them, to try to think your way through them. However, you need to be confident in yourself and your band. The hard part is not seeming or being arrogant. Most people think that showing or being confident means acting like a know it all or that you are better or bigger then everyone else. The key is to actually just feel it, not try to overtly show it.
The way I always tell people to think about it is when you are on stage, just really pretend everyone in the audience is enjoying your songs and show. Feel inside you are really banging it out. Give them a show, but not over the top.
When you talk to or relate to the crowd, smile. Make sure you look at every one of them as the most important fan on the earth, that this is THE one person who will put you over the top. And know and show that you understand that, and that you HAVE really put out your best.
If you ever get a chance, go see a band called Dash Rip Rock. Be like Bill Davis, the leader. That my friends is confidence. He is fun, knows he is giving his all, and relates well to the crowd, with a respect for them. That is how you should try to "fake it."
Believe me, fake it till you make it does work. You will begin to become all those things you need to be to be successful.
New idea today:
"Fake it till you make it."
Now I'll explain how to actually do it. Many people don't understand how to walk this tightrope, however it is absolutely critical to success.
You need to believe, in your soul, that you are successful and that everything you do will lead in some way to your success. Even the failures. The greatest people in the history of the world, and especially music, have all believed they would succeed, and looked at failures as just a bump on the way to winnning. That is not to say you should just brush them off like nothing happened, but you need to acknowledge they did happen, figure out why, and then take that to improve on the next attempt.
For example, I managed a band that believed that people were coming to see them for their outrageous stage show. They kept getting more and more outrageous until it really just got stupid. At the last show they did they didn't notice that the normal crowd had become half what it had been. Then, the lead singer decided halfway through the show to take all his clothes off except his underwear. Within two minutes everyone left. Why? A number of reasons, but lets just say huge hairy protrusions out your tighty whiteys coupled with stains and then a performance too distracting to care pretty much sealed the deal. The only thing worse would have been had they spit or peed on the crowd. Two days later, at a band meeting, the lead singer and the two guitar players were acting like they just did the best show ever. The drummer and bass player were arguing the opposite. The three didn't want to believe that it was a disaster, so they just went on like nothing happened. The band never got booked again. To this day the lead singer still doesn't understand why. He never learned and grew.
The other part of faking it is in being confident without being egotistical or arrogant. It is normal for everyone to have fears and real doubts. Its okay to have them, to try to think your way through them. However, you need to be confident in yourself and your band. The hard part is not seeming or being arrogant. Most people think that showing or being confident means acting like a know it all or that you are better or bigger then everyone else. The key is to actually just feel it, not try to overtly show it.
The way I always tell people to think about it is when you are on stage, just really pretend everyone in the audience is enjoying your songs and show. Feel inside you are really banging it out. Give them a show, but not over the top.
When you talk to or relate to the crowd, smile. Make sure you look at every one of them as the most important fan on the earth, that this is THE one person who will put you over the top. And know and show that you understand that, and that you HAVE really put out your best.
If you ever get a chance, go see a band called Dash Rip Rock. Be like Bill Davis, the leader. That my friends is confidence. He is fun, knows he is giving his all, and relates well to the crowd, with a respect for them. That is how you should try to "fake it."
Believe me, fake it till you make it does work. You will begin to become all those things you need to be to be successful.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Accounting 101 for original bands.
Every member should have a log where they keep their expenses for band things. I recommend two. One for actual expenditures, one for income, and one for time.
If you really want to know how successful you are, you need to track all three. Expenses is obvious. Gas, instrument care, equipment,clothing/costume, marketing. I mean these to be actual individual band member logs. This is not the BAND logs.
Income, also easy. Any income distributed by the band to you. In the early days, this will be almost non-existent.
Time. Very few track this. Every minute, hour, day you put in, you should keep track of. That includes personal home practice, writing time, production time, putting together mailings, posters, anything you do for the band.
Each month, at a minimum, I suggest reviewing the logs. Take a look at the expenditures. See if there is anything you didn't really need, or anything that was really helpful. Eliminate the bad, repeat the good.
Income. Well, if its small to nothing, okay. But you should be looking for signs that the income increases periodically and continues an upward trend.
Time. The ratio of time put in to income is a key tracking item. You should be able to see increasing income with more hours put in, and when you are starting to bee successful, the ratio of time put in to income should start to lower. That of course means you are getting a much better return for your efforts.The idea is to see if you can get to a point where one hour put in equals what five or ten hours did previously.
Every month the band members should get together and total all the logs. The band as a total can then see how much actual time they are dedicating to the band. It will also show who is slacking or working harder. And, of course, you can use it to see if you are making enough to continue on the path you are.
Try it.
tom
Every member should have a log where they keep their expenses for band things. I recommend two. One for actual expenditures, one for income, and one for time.
If you really want to know how successful you are, you need to track all three. Expenses is obvious. Gas, instrument care, equipment,clothing/costume, marketing. I mean these to be actual individual band member logs. This is not the BAND logs.
Income, also easy. Any income distributed by the band to you. In the early days, this will be almost non-existent.
Time. Very few track this. Every minute, hour, day you put in, you should keep track of. That includes personal home practice, writing time, production time, putting together mailings, posters, anything you do for the band.
Each month, at a minimum, I suggest reviewing the logs. Take a look at the expenditures. See if there is anything you didn't really need, or anything that was really helpful. Eliminate the bad, repeat the good.
Income. Well, if its small to nothing, okay. But you should be looking for signs that the income increases periodically and continues an upward trend.
Time. The ratio of time put in to income is a key tracking item. You should be able to see increasing income with more hours put in, and when you are starting to bee successful, the ratio of time put in to income should start to lower. That of course means you are getting a much better return for your efforts.The idea is to see if you can get to a point where one hour put in equals what five or ten hours did previously.
Every month the band members should get together and total all the logs. The band as a total can then see how much actual time they are dedicating to the band. It will also show who is slacking or working harder. And, of course, you can use it to see if you are making enough to continue on the path you are.
Try it.
tom
I have some KILLER advice for being in original bands, but I've only been doing it for 7 years. So... forget it. I'll keep it to myself.
I'm sorry for even reading this thread. It has some of the WORST advice I've ever seen.
I don't care who you are or how long you've been playing originals, no one is going to tell me to "fake it". I know what you mean, and I still think it's wrong.
You want to know how to be a successful original band? Read Mike Watts "We Jam Econo" or buy the Fugazi "Instrument" DVD. Forget this thread.
I don't care who you are or how long you've been playing originals, no one is going to tell me to "fake it". I know what you mean, and I still think it's wrong.
You want to know how to be a successful original band? Read Mike Watts "We Jam Econo" or buy the Fugazi "Instrument" DVD. Forget this thread.
This book is "unavailable" on Amazon and there is no information about its contents. Why don't you provide us with a shorthand version to fill in the blanks. Personally, I believe there's a ton of good information in this thread. It's OK to disagree, but you need to provide more information to back up your complaint. Otherwise it's just moanin' and bitchin'.....
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Hey, you are free to have your opinion. However, I and many contributors here have been your age, as far as I can tell, you ain't been mine or ours. That means tons of experience.
Mike Watt is okay, but really, most of those hardcore guys from Orange County came and went so quick because the scene more or less was the thing, not the music or the band. I liked seeing Mike with Iggy and the reborn Stooges, but I'm not sure his documentary really adds more to the story.
I get a lot of people talking about Trent Reznor and his "business model." Even Trent now admits, although not that much publicly, that he made his biggest bucks the old way, and he is still struggling to find a way to do it "the new way" on his own.
I'll give you a list of people who "faked it". Three of the Ramones (only Dee Dee lived it). Adam Clayton (the only member of U2 not born again and a living, breathing Christian), Bill Wyman (he was always older and never subscribed to the Stones lifestyle) and yes, THE BEATLES!
Young man, read about the early days of the Beatles in Hamburg Germany, with Stu Sutcliffe on stage without the ability to really play and before they really made it. They certainly acted like they were already on the top.
Lots of others too. If you have no confidence in yourself, or your performance, you won't get very far at all with an original band. So you have to fake it if you can't actually be or feel it.
Again, you are free to have an opinion. I disagree with yours. Next time you play a gig in NYC, let me know. I'll come and see how the things you've learned have made you successful.
Otherwise, share equally here. If you believe you have a better way or more knowledge, share it. You might be surprised at how others agree or discuss it with you.
Have fun in the Great White North.....
I may be oversimplifying, but aren't you saying Tom the following:
Faking it does not mean not having the skill.
Faking it means you act as if you've been there all along, you belong up on that stage in front of 500 or 10,000 or 100,000 people.
Tons of talented people never "make it". Maybe their "fake it" stage is all they get.
Faking it does not mean not having the skill.
Faking it means you act as if you've been there all along, you belong up on that stage in front of 500 or 10,000 or 100,000 people.
Tons of talented people never "make it". Maybe their "fake it" stage is all they get.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Exactly. Its not about pretending to play, its about confidence and attitude. That is what you see when a newer band is playing to a crowd of 5 and performing on stage like its a crowd of 5000.
You can't fake playing a bass. You either can or you can't. But you can "fake" attitude. We spend tons of money every year going to the movies to watch people play characters. They fake it every day. And we magically believe them.
There's a big difference between "doing" & "being". Playing music is not just something you do; a musician is something that you are. It's not just when you're sitting down to an instrument, holding one in your hands, or strapping one on, either. A musician is something that you always are, at all times, not just when you're playing music. Maybe "faking it" wasn't a 100% appropriate term. It's an attitude to adopt. Being a "pro" is more about how you go about your business, all the time, than how much money you make. It's the attitude that needs to happen first, if there's ever going to be any chance of any paydays.
