How would YOU approach this?

[lowfreqgeek]

Two 2-bar phrases with this basic structure:

|: E-9 BbMaj7(13) | A-7 B-7 GMaj7 AbMaj7 | D-9 AbMaj7(13) | G-7 A-7 FMaj7 GbMaj7 :|

It clips along at 120BPM, and the 4 chords in the second bar of each phrase are actually syncopated, but I can't easily indicate that here.

Just curious how others might approach soloing over that. I've got a ton of ideas I've been working out (modal, pentatonic, scalar - melodic and harmonic minor approaches - substitutions, etc).

What you got, TB?

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Anyone?

That's alright - like I said, I've got plenty of ideas. It'd just be nice to hear some other ideas and approaches that might work.

 

[belzebass]

In my opinion, the 4-chord bar is certainly very pivotal, so I would improvise over measures 1 and 3, and establish a riff (a fixed phrase) that follows strongly the chords and the syncopation for measures 2 and 4. A little gospel style: you play the lead voice impro (measures 1 and 3) and the choir puts a fixed phrase (on measures 2 and 4).

Like this:

Dum-titidadum-taa-tata | Dum-diduum-titaaa| Dumtit-dumtiti-dum |  Dum-diduum-tataaa

 

[lowfreqgeek]

In my opinion, the 4-chord bar is certainly very pivotal, so I would improvise over measures 1 and 3, and establish a riff (a fixed phrase) that follows strongly the chords and the syncopation for measures 2 and 4. A little gospel style: you play the lead voice impro (measures 1 and 3) and the choir puts a fixed phrase (on measures 2 and 4).

Like this:

Dum-titidadum-taa-tata | Dum-diduum-titaaa| Dumtit-dumtiti-dum |  Dum-diduum-tataaa

Ooh, nice! I like that idea. Will definitely give it a try. Thanks!

 

[Jeffrey Wash]

Interesting changes. I'd curious to hear what the melody is doing. Bars 3-4 are a repeat of bars 1-2, only a whole step lower, so that kinda helps. Just looking at the first 2 bars, for some reason I'm hearing a lot of stuff centered around G:

Em9 - could play G lydian (or G Maj pentatonic)
BbMaj13 - could play G melodic minor (or G min pentatonic)
Am7, Bm7, Gmaj7 - can all be G major scale (or G Maj pentatonic)
AbMaj7 - G locrian (or G min pentatonic)

Then take it all down a whole step for bars 3-4. At that tempo, my first instinct would be to go for the simpler approach of alternating the Maj and Min Pentatonics.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Interesting changes. I'd curious to hear what the melody is doing. Bars 3-4 are a repeat of bars 1-2, only a whole step lower, so that kinda helps. Just looking at the first 2 bars, for some reason I'm hearing a lot of stuff centered around G:

Em9 - could play G lydian (or G Maj pentatonic)
BbMaj13 - could play G melodic minor (or G min pentatonic)
Am7, Bm7, Gmaj7 - can all be G major scale (or G Maj pentatonic)
AbMaj7 - G locrian (or G min pentatonic)

Then take it all down a whole step for bars 3-4. At that tempo, my first instinct would be to go for the simpler approach of alternating the Maj and Min Pentatonics.

There is no melody over this as it's essentially a vamp for the soloist(s).

Centering around a G (and F) tonality was the first thing I came up with, then I started expanding from there and finding that if I stretched the phrasing and sequencing right, I could draw from the melodic minor with a Lyd Dom on the first bar and a Mixo b6 on the second bar, but that's entirely dependent on phrasing. Breaking it down to tetrachords is a good way to keep things straight.

I did the pentatonic stuff (maj and min), played with stacking 4ths, kept it all centered around a G (and F) and then played around with using the same mode (like all Lydians, wherever they need to be to make it fit). And a few other things.

My overall strategy is to find lines that flow through the changes without hitting every chord directly. I'm mainly working on the building blocks to be able to improvise a solo over this for 2+ minutes without running out of phrasing or harmony ideas. That's kinda tough because the rhythm is very specific on the 2nd bar.

It's moving so fast that just playing the bass line itself is a challenge, but I really want to be able to solo over it if I feel like it. Don't want to be stumped in the moment...

 

[lowfreqgeek]

I forgot I had this, but here's a rehearsal recording of these changes, with the guitarist (who wrote them...) working out some ideas.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I forgot I had this, but here's a rehearsal recording of these changes, with the guitarist (who wrote them...) working out some ideas.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I'm just an amateur and here are my thoughts.

From your original posting, I did not like your choice of BbMaj13 chord - "uncomfortably-dissonant and full of dark tensions".
It really stands out against the rest of your harmonic/chord structure, but
if you, as a composer, decided to use it, you must have a very good reason/very important piece of melody for it.

Four syncopated chords in one bar at 120BPM, sounds kind of busy to me (it could be an orchestral tutti) , but again, you are the creator - I'm the listener.

I've attached two sheets with some notes for soloing.

The first sheet has a simple melody, the second sheet - with the 16th notes - is only to show you what notes I would play with your harmony. Yes, it has some dissonant notes, but I was just following your "BbMaj13 mood".

P.S. After I heard your live recording, I've just wanted to tell you, that

I couldn't hear who plays chords/harmony and accentuates that BbMaj13 chord.

I couldn't hear what musician clearly articulates those "busy" four chords in one bar.

Also, first I would like to hear some kind of tune/motif/phrase/melody that you or other musicians would develop later.

 

[DrCannabass]

My two cents: play the roots for a while, let that get established. then listen to everyone and let it grow somewhere. Chord progressions are merely suggestions...

Band sounds good!

 

[azureblue]

Two 2-bar phrases with this basic structure:

|: E-9 BbMaj7(13) | A-7 B-7 GMaj7 AbMaj7 | D-9 AbMaj7(13) | G-7 A-7 FMaj7 GbMaj7 :|

It clips along at 120BPM, and the 4 chords in the second bar of each phrase are actually syncopated, but I can't easily indicate that here.

Just curious how others might approach soloing over that. I've got a ton of ideas I've been working out (modal, pentatonic, scalar - melodic and harmonic minor approaches - substitutions, etc).

What you got, TB?

How about, instead of thinking in terms of patterns, you think in terms of how to construct a melody?

|: E-9 BbMaj7(13) | A-7 B-7 GMaj7 AbMaj7 | D-9 AbMaj7(13) | G-7 A-7 FMaj7 GbMaj7 :|

Look for common tones, leading tones, etc. For instance, in the first measure, A, G and C are common tones. Measure two, you have is an A and a C for the last two beats. Measure three - is the same as measure one, just down a whole step, so you get G, F and Bb, and Measure 4 is likewise the same as measure two. So you can build a nice little melody that hangs on A and C for the first two measures then repeat it a whole step down, while changing the melody on the last two beats of Measure 4. Use the half step differences between chords to add some interest.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The good news is that I've already done everything suggested (and then some), so I'm not missing anything obvious.

I really think the key is just knowing the mechanics of these changes inside and out - knowing specifically what notes go with which chords and any given point, then building off that with all the different possible approaches.

As to the suggestions regarding the composition, please remember that this is just a very specific snippet and not representative of the whole tune. The motif is well established before any soloing takes place, and we have keys which outline the harmonies when the guitar is soloing, and the guitar outlines the harmony when keys/sax are soloing, so the clip I posted is missing 2 components that would generally be there (keys and sax).

It may sound dissonant to some, but it's pretty tame - especially compared to the composer's inspirations (and some of his teachers) like Wayne Krantz, Charles Altura, Alex Machacek, etc.

All good so far! Please keep the ideas coming.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The good news is that I've already done everything suggested (and then some), so I'm not missing anything obvious.

I thought you were asking a question, but I was wrong - you're already knowledgeable about your music.
Sorry, I've got involved.

It may sound dissonant to some, but it's pretty tame

It's not about dissonant harmony - I think you either misunderstood me or did not want to listen.
Again, sorry I've got involved.

- especially compared to the composer's inspirations (and some of his teachers) like Wayne Krantz,

In the past, I posted the link to an interesting composition/song from
Wayne Krantz's ‎– Howie 61


Track 05 - "Son Of A Scientist"

Bass – Tal Wilkenfeld
Drums – Vinnie Colaiuta
Piano – John Beasley
Vocals – Gabriela Anders

Try to listen to the texture of the composition, bassline, dynamics, development, form, etc...

Please keep the ideas coming.

Ask the Berklee School of Music Bass Department
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/announcement.php?f=21&a=244

 

[jblmusic1994]

Play a low C natural in steady 16ths over the entire thing.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

I thought you were asking a question, but I was wrong - you're already knowledgeable about your music.
Sorry, I've got involved.

Don't be sorry. I meant no offense in my comment.

Yes, I'm quite knowledgeable about music, but I'm looking for other ideas I haven't already worked on. That in NO WAY means I'm not interested in what anyone else has to say - only that I had already identified and worked through everything thus far mentioned before I made the thread. I'm just glad that I hadn't missed something more obvious in my own analysis and practice.

Ultimately, my goal is to create flowing melodic lines over the top of these changes. I don't have to hit every note by any means, but I do have to know what the options are. Generally, I'm pretty good at analyzing and improvising in the moment, even when reading, but there's always room for improvement.

I appreciate the effort you put into the 2 sheets you provided, and I'll check out the Krantz track. Thanks!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Yes, I'm quite knowledgeable about music, but I'm looking for other ideas I haven't already worked on. That in NO WAY means I'm not interested in what anyone else has to say - only that I had already identified and worked through everything thus far mentioned before I made the thread. I'm just glad that I hadn't missed something more obvious in my own analysis and practice.

I have nothing against any dissonant chords or your BbMaj13 - “full of dark tensions”.
I just could not find the logic for using that chord.
Your first and four chords in your second bar – Am7, Bm7, etc... (repeated in your modulation) have different “soft” mood and a different character – the manner in which it must be played.

You are asking about the notes to be used in your soloing.
To me it sounds that you are asking about mathematics, barely related to any emotions.
Music theory is to help you not to stifle you.
What if I decide to play just one quarter note on C#? It's my note.
You are talking about Krantz ( MOOD/CHARACTER) on one hand, on the other hand, you are asking
what notes to play. To find those “what-to-play-notes” it's easy. The difficult part is what you are going to create.
You said about two more instruments.
Your recorded clip shows to me that the texture is already “too busy”.
And you are going to add two more instruments.

I can continue but I doubt that you want to listen.

My advice.

Just record your chord movement/changes into the sequencer, turn your tape or digital recorder on, and, with the help of your creative mood, just solo over and over again. During that time, try to remove any doubts about your notes, about “what-would-Victor-Wooten-do”, "what-would-the-Berklee-bass-department-advise", etc... - just you in your semi-subconscious creative trance.

 

[Fifield]

My advice.

Just record your chord movement/changes into the sequencer, turn your tape or digital recorder on, and, with the help of your creative mood, just solo over and over again. During that time, try to remove any doubts about your notes, about “what-would-Victor-Wooten-do”, "what-would-the-Berklee-bass-department-advise", etc... - just you in your semi-subconscious creative trance.

I understand where you're coming from with this advice but too often people use this approach as their only source of improv practice when getting a grip on a new progression. I'm not saying that's what you are saying, just putting in a word of caution.

In my experience, just putting on a loop and hoping for the best is good fun, but achieves slow results.

this article is talking about play-along tracks in general, but has a good explanation of why this can be a bad thing.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Thanks, Whousedtoplay. Do you still play, or just used to? Are you a performing musician?

You've made completely wrong assumptions about me and and what I'm asking from the start. I'm sorry that you're confused and offended, but I can't do anything about that. I'm sure you have lots to say, but I'd prefer that you just show me by recording and posting it here for me and everyone else to hear exactly how it *should* be played. I will transcribe that and do exactly as you say.

And really, Victor Wooten? I respect him, but I haven't actively listened to him for 15 years. Wrong again...

If you want to judge me as a composer and musician, then at least use some real performances and recordings like Wilwood or That Too or Rasta Pasta or The American Rails or Psalm 20. I have many more, but that would be excessive.

Thanks to all who actually contributed various conceptual approaches, like the "G tonalities", "common tones", and especially "melodic lines" and the idea of a fixed riff/phrase over bars 2/4 and improvised phrases over 1/3. Those are the kinds of concepts I'm after. Keep those coming - just don't assume I'm a complete novice.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I understand where you're coming from with this advice but too often people use this approach as their only source of improv practice when getting a grip on a new progression. I'm not saying that's what you are saying, just putting in a word of caution.

In my experience, just putting on a loop and hoping for the best is good fun, but achieves slow results.

All my postings at TB are about learning, learning, and learning. Learning music theory, harmony, form, composition, etc..., but when I'm trying to create something new, something that is only YOU, I don't have the time to analyze.
It's not time for mathematics.

Music knowledge teaches you how to drive a car, but where to drive - it depends only on you.

Next.

I can tell you a joke about "slow results".
One artist is complaining:
"I don't understand. It took me one day to paint this painting, but it took me more than one year to sell it.
The other artist responds:
"It took me more than one year to paint my painting, and only one day to sell it."

Maybe it's me. I just don't like mediocrity; therefore, I always recommend, "Strive for perfection".

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Ok, Whousedtoplay - throw something down for us. Please!

I don't claim to be an expert (which is why I asked for other conceptual approaches), but I'm willing to put myself on the line by posting things that simply show I'm human, for better or worse. I've seen videos by at least one other poster in this thread and I know he's legit.

What have you got? I'd love to see it.

 

[Snarf]

Chord tones and #11s where appropriate.