How would you react to this?

[stringtapper]

How would I react?

I would start practicing upright, that's how.

 

[QweziRider]

I'm not standing for it.

A singer friend of mine posted this the other day on FB and it seems to fit: "When you complain, you make yourself a victim. Leave the situation, change the situation, or accept it. All else is madness." - Eckhart Tolle

I've read all you wrote, and I get it. But what are you going to do (in a rhetorical sense)? Seems to me you've made up your mind (bump him down in your list of calls), so do it and move on. And while you're at it, consider adding to your arsenal of skills and pickup upright bass. It can only add to your reputation. It's precisely what I did when called years ago for a local prominent bluegrass band. Sure, they were content to have me on electric only, but to me that does not fit the genre. So I did what I had to do to make myself more marketable. And being able to play upright has helped me keep jobs as well as get certain jobs sight unseen (no audition).

Moving my scenario into the things you describe, I recently was left out of one date on my current fly date gig allegedly for someone closer and allegedly due to cost reasons. Yet I'm booked for upcoming gigs. Yeah it pissed me off, yeah it made no sense, yeah I'm supposedly the first call player for this gig, but what am I gonna do? I'm not the BL, it's not my show, so I can only leave it, change it, or accept it.

 

[Mushroo]

He used his work with you as a networking opportunity, and met a piano player he seems to gel with.

 

[PauFerro]

One risk is that if I cut him loose, he could start going after all my clients and that could cause drama. I have a lot of them, and he knows the pay rates. And i already take a cut off the top before paying the musicians, but I encourage them to do the same as they too need to be compensated for all the rejection and hassles involved in arranging and being responsible for gigs.

This has been a good discussion. Some of the comments are a bit off, not recognizing the political environment that prevails when you have musicians playing the same bands, to the same kinds of clients, with the same kind of music. But the discussion has helped me see the issues.

I am considering using him for my existing clients that know him so at least he doesn't go after them. He likes to play with me, and never refuses gigs, and I keep him busy enough, so that approach would not disturb anything. Keep your friends close and your potential enemies closer as they say.

New gigs go to a different drummer. If he asks me about it, I'll mention his group, their professional video, his booking at local music festivals not offerred to me, and let him know that I've decided to move forward on a different model. I won't have 1st, 2nd and 3rd call musicians, I will call musicians as I see fit. And that I am more than willing to throw more gigs his way provided he reciprocates. In the meantime, he can take a reduced gigging schedule. I will only bring it up if he does so there is no drama.

 

[wintremute]

One risk is that if I cut him loose, he could start going after all my clients and that could cause drama. I have a lot of them, and he knows the pay rates. And i already take a cut off the top before paying the musicians, but I encourage them to do the same as they too need to be compensated for all the rejection and hassles involved in arranging and being responsible for gigs.

This has been a good discussion. Some of the comments are a bit off, not recognizing the political environment that prevails when you have musicians playing the same bands, to the same kinds of clients, with the same kind of music. But the discussion has helped me see the issues.

I am considering using him for my existing clients that know him so at least he doesn't go after them. He likes to play with me, and never refuses gigs, and I keep him busy enough, so that approach would not disturb anything. Keep your friends close and your potential enemies closer as they say.

New gigs go to a different drummer. If he asks me about it, I'll mention his group, their professional video, his booking at local music festivals not offerred to me, and let him know that I've decided to move forward on a different model. I won't have 1st, 2nd and 3rd call musicians, I will call musicians as I see fit. And that I am more than willing to throw more gigs his way provided he reciprocates. In the meantime, he can take a reduced gigging schedule. I will only bring it up if he does so there is no drama.

This reaction makes more sense.

 

[PauFerro]

And while you're at it, consider adding to your arsenal of skills and pickup upright bass. It can only add to your reputation. It's precisely what I did when called years ago for a local prominent bluegrass band. Sure, they were content to have me on electric only, but to me that does not fit the genre. So I did what I had to do to make myself more marketable. And being able to play upright has helped me keep jobs as well as get certain jobs sight unseen (no audition).

I am planning to do this. I have wanted to play upright for years. I realized recently it was so hard because the basses in the stores aren't set up properly. I played one that was set up properly and it was relatively easy. So, I think that with the right set up I could learn it pretty quickly.

I have one question - what about an electric upright bass? Does that carry weight in getting gigs? Or is it essential to play a big acoustic bass? I already haul a ton of stuff for some gigs, and to add the upright bass to the mix is going to be a really hassle.

 

[elgecko]

1. It simple...he moves down the call list. How far he moves down the list is up to you. YOU know where your bread gets buttered.

2. From your previous posts, I know you play jazz. You have to accept the fact that many people prefer upright. It's kind of silly but that's just the way it is. Do yourself a favor and pick up upright.

3. Always remember, it's just business. You can't take these things personally.

 

[Bass.]

I may be a little off the mark here but I believe that communication will help this situation. In my experience my imagination is almost always worse than reality. I'm not saying that you should go talk to him about the scenario but if the time comes that you two decide to discuss what happened the situation may be more complex than it seems on the surface. I personally would do my best to be professional with him moving forward, use him on gigs that you think he would fit but don't go out of your way to be particularly "loyal" to any one person. This strategy will allow you to play a longer game.. The future is impossible to see and I wouldn't recommend burning any bridges no matter how burned you feel.

 

[elgecko]

...I have one question - what about an electric upright bass? Does that carry weight in getting gigs? Or is it essential to play a big acoustic bass? I already haul a ton of stuff for some gigs, and to add the upright bass to the mix is going to be a really hassle.

It holds more weight than electric but speaking from experience, DB > EUB > electric in the eyes of those who have a preference.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm an active local musician/electric bass player and I have a group of musicians I call in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order for gigs. I have a drummer who is first call. I bring him a lot of gigs, judging by the size of his 1099 at the end of the year.

Anyway, he called me a while ago asking if I would mind if for a couple gigs at a restaurant not far from him, if he could use our piano player (2nd call guy) and a string bass player for the gig. His reason for this was the owner "wants string bass" and I'm an electric player. I said fine, but indicated that if I was going to call him first for all the gigs I have, I'm expecting to be part of the gigs if the instrumentation is the same (piano, bass, drums) that he books.

Personally, it irks me when I bring musicians a lot of work, find the musicians, arrange the rehearsals, get everyone music, and then they go off on their own, when there are no apparent interpersonal skill or other problems. I also think the owners' string bass requirement was hokus.

I later see all over the Internet that he has named the trio, and gotten a professional video done. He is listed as the contact for this group, and they are doing music festivals around town.

How would you proceed with this case?

I'm surprised he even asked you. People don't have to get your permission to take other gigs. You may consider it bad form, but that's the way it goes. And I've been in the position of people snaking gigs you introduced them to before, and there's really not much you can do.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

I am planning to do this. I have wanted to play upright for years. I realized recently it was so hard because the basses in the stores aren't set up properly. I played one that was set up properly and it was relatively easy. So, I think that with the right set up I could learn it pretty quickly.

I have one question - what about an electric upright bass? Does that carry weight in getting gigs? Or is it essential to play a big acoustic bass? I already haul a ton of stuff for some gigs, and to add the upright bass to the mix is going to be a really hassle.

Do not waste your time with an EUB. Much like how hardcore metal fans like big amps for image hardcore jazz fans insist on the doghouse.

 

[PauFerro]

I'm surprised he even asked you. People don't have to get your permission to take other gigs. You may consider it bad form, but that's the way it goes. And I've been in the position of people snaking gigs you introduced them to before, and there's really not much you can do.

What I am about to say does not bear on the current situation, but on gig sharks in general -- people who are in your band, start their own band, and then low ball all your clients, take the musicians you put together, and create headaches for your pocket book.

I think there is a ton you can do. I am of the mind you have to prevent people from ruining all your hard work, stealing the clients you found, making the musicians you oriented unavailable for your own gigs, incurring extra rehearsals with subs (and the quality problems that often results), -- all that is blood sweat and tears and it needs to be "defended" against competition - particularly from people who you trusted wtih all the inside information by giving them the priviledge of getting paid and being part of your project. If you wan to respond to these kinds of things -- when there is outright gig-sharing you can do the following. I have never done it before, but if I had blatant gig sharking by someone in one of the bands I formed, I would do this.

a) Go after the gig sharker's clients until he sees the wisdom of leaving yours alone. Make sure he knows that's why you did it.
b) Poach his musicians for better paying gigs. Make sue he knows the only reason that is happening is because he is gig sharking your clients.
c) Shut him out of all future gigs with the band.

All with the clear communication this is happening because he is taking advantage of your hard work, reducing your gig schedule, diluting the pay in the market, and causing you extra rehearsal. You can use it as a conversation piece to figure out what might need to change in the original band that prompted the guy to go out on his own in the first place. It means there should have been communication earlier on to figure out what prompted the guy to off on their own.

The other thing I have done is up my marketing efforts to find new clients, Keep your own musicians so busy they don't have time for other bands or for going after your clients.

 

[Eric_Allard]

There are other drummers I prefer more too, but I made a commitment to him as first call for a host of reasons, and he knew that I was expecting him to reciprocate with gigs when he has them.

He told me that after they played together it would be "just for fun" after that. Sounds like it's not just for fun anymore if they have it all over the Internet.

I am thinking of moving him off the first call chair after I talk to him and get an unsatisfactory answer. We are all at different levels.

But I think it's politically unwise to cut the guy out of paid work (me) who gives him the lion's share of his music income.

This is a situation similar to something I've encountered in the engineering consulting world: On some projects, we sometimes require the assistance of other specialized fields and often have mutually beneficial arrangements with said consultants. If a consultant who got lots of work through me starts using another consultant for work in my field of expertise, I'm may start looking for someone else for future projects.

 

[bass10bfb]

I think you pretty much have your mind made up on what you want to do, no matter what any of us say, and that's fine. People always disagree on how to handle personal band situations like this. You will get opinion after opinion. I believe in communication and never burning any bridge unless it is just absolutely necessary. It is up to you bro. Good luck with what you choose.

 

[bolophonic]

No offense, but all this retaliation/retribution talk makes you sound petty and unhinged. You sound like you own these guys, but you don't.

 

[schenknasty]

Are these people your indentured servants?

The purpose of a musical community is to stretch out and be inclusive to new players and opportunities.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

No offense, but all this retaliation/retribution talk makes you sound petty and unhinged. You sound like you own these guys, but you don't.

It's just business... unless it is the OP's business, then it's personal.

 

[DavC]

how would i react ... i'd tell him to have fun with his new trio , and i wouldn't have him on my list any longer ... ! i wouldn't want to be lied to and used , ... we all get enough of that crap from friends /family ... it is about Respect and Trust/honor ...

 

[Bodeanly]

What I am about to say does not bear on the current situation, but on gig sharks in general -- people who are in your band, start their own band, and then low ball all your clients, take the musicians you put together, and create headaches for your pocket book.

I think there is a ton you can do. I am of the mind you have to prevent people from ruining all your hard work, stealing the clients you found, making the musicians you oriented unavailable for your own gigs, incurring extra rehearsals with subs (and the quality problems that often results), -- all that is blood sweat and tears and it needs to be "defended" against competition - particularly from people who you trusted wtih all the inside information by giving them the priviledge of getting paid and being part of your project. If you wan to respond to these kinds of things -- when there is outright gig-sharing you can do the following. I have never done it before, but if I had blatant gig sharking by someone in one of the bands I formed, I would do this.

a) Go after the gig sharker's clients until he sees the wisdom of leaving yours alone. Make sure he knows that's why you did it.
b) Poach his musicians for better paying gigs. Make sue he knows the only reason that is happening is because he is gig sharking your clients.
c) Shut him out of all future gigs with the band.

All with the clear communication this is happening because he is taking advantage of your hard work, reducing your gig schedule, diluting the pay in the market, and causing you extra rehearsal. You can use it as a conversation piece to figure out what might need to change in the original band that prompted the guy to go out on his own in the first place. It means there should have been communication earlier on to figure out what prompted the guy to off on their own.

The other thing I have done is up my marketing efforts to find new clients, Keep your own musicians so busy they don't have time for other bands or for going after your clients.

What's the point in asking us how we would react if you're going to get defensive when we wouldn't react the way you want us to? If the way you communicate on the internet is a reflection of how you are in the real world, I wouldn't wanna work with you either.

 

[Shawncavbass]

in this situation I don't see a problem so much with him forming his own group. jazz gigs along with cover bands tend to be a constant revolving door with members. very interchangeable. You could argue that different members make things sound different, sure that is a valid argument but there is no exclusivity when it comes to music unless contracts are involved. I'm first call for lots of singer/songwriters in my area, that doesn't mean I cant have my own band and promote my own music... which I am not sure was discussed yet. Is his new trio performing standards or original comps. if original there is no argument here. he made a group based on who he felt would contribute to his sound the best... if its standards I wouldn't be offended at all. Upright is always more desired when it comes to jazz than electric bass. Electric comes off a bit too fusion and isn't as subtle unless you play it a certain way. I've lost out on gigs because I didn't play upright and it wasn't because of my playing it was for the aesthetics. Don't sweat it, you have other drummers in your arsenal, if you want to make a point to him don't call him for a few gigs. He will get the picture.