How would you react to this?

[schenknasty]

Just remember what the Buddha said, "Give a man a gig, he will play it... teach a man to gig, and he will be talked about on an internet forum instead of in person."

 

[QweziRider]

I have one question - what about an electric upright bass? Does that carry weight in getting gigs?

First of all, excellent for you! You bet, a well set up bass makes the difference as to your first impression of taking on a new paradigm. And I did find moving to upright to be a whole different way of thinking. Yeah, I knew the notes, I knew roughly where they would be, but it was a whole different way of even thinking for me. And I loved (still do) that challenge.

I kind of went for a compromise on what you're asking. I went with an Eminence upright. You get the same vertical dimensions of a "real" upright and a lot of the same acoustic characteristics as played through an amp. And that's what I wanted, was to get close to the real thing in feel and sound as I could through an amp since everything I do is amplified anyhow. The gigs I do most (country, rock, bluegrass, etc. (even show tunes with a local community choir), it fits perfectly. Hell, even the classic rock gig I do it was a heck of an addition that the band loved. I might use it on up to half of any given set just because! And I've never had a complaint in the bluegrass world - and that's a lot less than I got using the acoustic bass for a brief period in that setting. As well, it sure hauls in the vehicle much better than a 3/4 upright.

So that may be something you might want to look into. I've loved mine and it's a lot of fun.

 

[Downunderwonder]

You are missing the point. Perhaps you didn't read the original post carefully enough.

I agreed to that gig when he asked me, because I did not play upright. It was portrayed as a one-off thing -- special circumstances. But now, he is actively promoting the band, doing music festivals, with a professional video -- clearly his intentions went beyond merely filling that gig on that one night due to instrumentation limitations on my part.

Actively promoting a band that plays the same kind of music, and cutting me out of gigs that do not require upright -- THAT I have a problem with. And by the way, I know that clients don't seem to care if the bass is electric or upright in this town. With tons and tons of clients, as the gig booker, it is never an issue. So i don't buy the argument that he needs a separate ongoing band simply because I don't do upright.

I think he is being unwise from a business perspective, and after reflecting here, I think he deserves to be moved to a second or third call position, essentially gutting his schedule, and I should move up one of the other loyal drummers. The rest of the group should know that has happened as a deterrent from forming direct competition with what I do, and to work toward the success of the band we have formed together.

In the last year, be brough me ONE paid gig, and I got him abotu 15. I also have him scheduled for a ton more gigs between now and June. He doesn't deserve the work if he isn't going to reciprocate. It's not right. There are a ton of musicians in this town that want to be part of the groups I have formed. It's time he took a back seat.

what's the downside to dropping him like a hot potato? That's what I'd be doing. No discussion, just stop feeding him gigs unless everyone else is busy. Anybody with half a brain will figure it out for themselves.

 

[Marial]

Stuff like this is one of many reasons I'm happy to stick with a day job. I do this for fun, and this does not sound like fun.

 

[PauFerro]

I think you pretty much have your mind made up on what you want to do, no matter what any of us say, and that's fine. People always disagree on how to handle personal band situations like this. You will get opinion after opinion. I believe in communication and never burning any bridge unless it is just absolutely necessary. It is up to you bro. Good luck with what you choose.

I like the idea of keeping him on as I need him. It increases the availability of musicians for me. It keeps him from hitting on my clients. He gets to be fulfilled in his own musical endeavors. It's balanced. It also preserves my relationhip with the other musician I introduced him to that he uses in this project.

As far as thinking I "own" these musicians -- I don't think that way. But I do object to them forming bands that play essentially the same music without me, under the guise of a "one off", particularly when we had an agreement that we would work together to make the current trio success - and I put skin in the game by giving him dozens and dozens of gigs over the last few years.

And by the way, lots of guys want to work with me on these projects.

I had a situation a year or two ago where a sax player did a similar thing after I fired our guitar player. Everyone here said to fire the sax player. I kept the sax player on as I needed him, and now he calls me wanting to do experimental work with backing tracks, never refuses gigs, charts new music for the band, and is still committed. I have fired only one person in the last five years, so I am not hard to work with. And I have never had to use the heavy-handed measures I shared above with any of the musicians so far. None of them have gone after my clients. The day they so -- then I will play hard ball.

In this particular situation in the opening post, none of the heavy-handed stuff applies. The drummer hasn't gone after my clients. When he does, I don't mind playing hard ball.

 

[Khronic]

Just remember what the Buddha said, "Give a man a gig, he will play it... teach a man to gig, and he will be talked about on an internet forum instead of in person."

No, no, no, that was Repeautta the Beautta that said that.

 

[SLO Surfer]

I think the biggest reason clients and audiences like upright bass is because of its looks, with the sound being secondary. For this reason I would get an actual acoustic upright bass.

Is your reason to learn upright to become more marketable? Upright is considerably more marketable than electric upright.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Have a look for Captain Ukuleles' 1/4 scale upright acoustic. There's a demo duo with uke playing Fūr Elise.

 

[PauFerro]

Is your reason to learn upright to become more marketable? Upright is considerably more marketable than electric upright.

Marketability is one. I also play fretless, piccolo in an originals band where I write most of the music, and of course four and six string electric bass. I would like to round it out with upright bass. It's been an unfulfilled dream for many years. This has sort of brought it to a head as a reason to finally do it.

 

[denhou1974]

He's modified the relationship so you need to do the same. Stop feeding him gigs if he isn't giving you any.

Keep it professional though. Don't discuss it with him. Chances are he doesn't think that he's done anything wrong. If he doesn't know then telling him won't help.

 

[Hounddog409]

You are missing the point. Perhaps you didn't read the original post carefully enough.

I agreed to that gig when he asked me, because I did not play upright. It was portrayed as a one-off thing -- special circumstances. But now, he is actively promoting the band, doing music festivals, with a professional video -- clearly his intentions went beyond merely filling that gig on that one night due to instrumentation limitations on my part.

Actively promoting a band that plays the same kind of music, and cutting me out of gigs that do not require upright -- THAT I have a problem with. And by the way, I know that clients don't seem to care if the bass is electric or upright in this town. With tons and tons of clients, as the gig booker, it is never an issue. So i don't buy the argument that he needs a separate ongoing band simply because I don't do upright.

I think he is being unwise from a business perspective, and after reflecting here, I think he deserves to be moved to a second or third call position, essentially gutting his schedule, and I should move up one of the other loyal drummers. The rest of the group should know that has happened as a deterrent from forming direct competition with what I do, and to work toward the success of the band we have formed together.

In the last year, be brough me ONE paid gig, and I got him abotu 15. I also have him scheduled for a ton more gigs between now and June. He doesn't deserve the work if he isn't going to reciprocate. It's not right. There are a ton of musicians in this town that want to be part of the groups I have formed. It's time he took a back seat.

"I agreed to that gig when he asked me, because I did not play upright. It was portrayed as a one-off thing "

right. and it clicked..they really enjoyed it and it turned into something. it happens; This guy did nothing wrong.

sounds to me like you need to get over it and move on.

 

[Gougedeye]

It sounds like you are just a bit territorial with these guys. Maybe they were able to create that magical moment that many musicians just dream of....and wanted to take it further. When there is chemistry, it is hard to deny. But I see your point. In fairness, the drummer should be reciprocating gigs your way. Since that is not happening you have a couple of choices to make. 1) confront the guy and tell him how you feel. 2) don't hire him. Find some other suitable replacement and go about your business. I don't know that you want to make this into a battle and end up soiling both your reputations about town.

 

[JimmyM]

What I am about to say does not bear on the current situation, but on gig sharks in general -- people who are in your band, start their own band, and then low ball all your clients, take the musicians you put together, and create headaches for your pocket book.

I think there is a ton you can do. I am of the mind you have to prevent people from ruining all your hard work, stealing the clients you found, making the musicians you oriented unavailable for your own gigs, incurring extra rehearsals with subs (and the quality problems that often results), -- all that is blood sweat and tears and it needs to be "defended" against competition - particularly from people who you trusted wtih all the inside information by giving them the priviledge of getting paid and being part of your project. If you wan to respond to these kinds of things -- when there is outright gig-sharing you can do the following. I have never done it before, but if I had blatant gig sharking by someone in one of the bands I formed, I would do this.

a) Go after the gig sharker's clients until he sees the wisdom of leaving yours alone. Make sure he knows that's why you did it.
b) Poach his musicians for better paying gigs. Make sue he knows the only reason that is happening is because he is gig sharking your clients.
c) Shut him out of all future gigs with the band.

And that's all you can really do to retaliate. You can't sue unless you have a no-compete contract, and no local musician in their right mind is going to sign one of them.

The other thing I have done is up my marketing efforts to find new clients, Keep your own musicians so busy they don't have time for other bands or for going after your clients.

The old "Don't poop where you eat" trick! Yes, that's how the BL in my band managed to do it with most of us, and yet there are a couple guys in the band who regularly take gigs in direct competition with us because, as they put it, "We've got days off and I have to support myself." I used to do it my own self because there was a time he didn't have enough gigs to not make it worth my while to turn them down. Now he does and I do. I'll still take gigs that aren't in direct competition with us, too. But that's my dividing line.

 

[mellowinman]

I would hold a grudge for the rest of my life, and die bitter.

 

[SLO Surfer]

Marketability is one. I also play fretless, piccolo in an originals band where I write most of the music, and of course four and six string electric bass. I would like to round it out with upright bass. It's been an unfulfilled dream for many years. This has sort of brought it to a head as a reason to finally do it.

Cool. If you already play fretless electric I would definitely recommend a real acoustic upright. An electric upright will sound pretty much just like an electric fretless, imo. You'll get more versatility in sounds out of your Arsenal with an acoustic upright. And marketability to boot!

 

[s0c9]

He used his work with you as a networking opportunity, and met a piano player he seems to gel with.

I'm surprised he even asked you. People don't have to get your permission to take other gigs. You may consider it bad form, but that's the way it goes. And I've been in the position of people snaking gigs you introduced them to before, and there's really not much you can do.

You sound like you own these guys, but you don't.

Having been somewhat in the OP's position (many yrs ago), this is not a music issue, it's a business issue.
If I take the time to get gigs booked, throw work in the direction of certain individuals, and do all the things outlined in the OP, then find out that my first call drummer has formed a band on their own - nothing wrong with that but - using people I have put together (and have worked with and they know) from that relationship... yes, I'm upset.. TOTALLY!!
In the financial world, that is known as "insider trading" - or profiting from others knowledge.
I would drop them to the bottom of my list.. and if they ask why.. you let them know why.
There should be a certain amount of loyalty with the whole thing.. it should not be a mercenary operation!

 

[PauFerro]

Not in agreement with the territoriality thing. If the drummer wanted to form a reggae band, a rock band, or any other kind of band, then fine. But the SAME BAND I formed, after agreeing to work together to make this group a success, then I maintain I have a problem with it. Particularly since he got me to agree to it on what appears to be false pretenses. It wasn't honest in my view. If he wanted to start his own, parallel band, playing the same music, he should have talked to me about it to a) assure me it would be a non-compete situation and b) to protect his own situation. The way he's handled it, I was seriously thinking of emptying his schedule to the tune of 18 -25 gigs a year. That is the potential price of his mismanagement.

As far as the bitterness, being hard to work with all that -- I reject it. You guys don't know me.

I like the plan where I keep giving him gigs as it suits me. There is no confrontation, no conflict. He can keep on doing what he is doing. The supply of people I can call for last minute gigs is in place. And I work with other drummers who I encourage to book gigs. But I'll be watching like a hawk to see if he starts poaching my clients.

 

[Space Pickle]

I'm an active local musician/electric bass player and I have a group of musicians I call in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order for gigs. I have a drummer who is first call. I bring him a lot of gigs, judging by the size of his 1099 at the end of the year.

Anyway, he called me a while ago asking if I would mind if for a couple gigs at a restaurant not far from him, if he could use our piano player (2nd call guy) and a string bass player for the gig. His reason for this was the owner "wants string bass" and I'm an electric player. I said fine, but indicated that if I was going to call him first for all the gigs I have, I'm expecting to be part of the gigs if the instrumentation is the same (piano, bass, drums) that he books.

Personally, it irks me when I bring musicians a lot of work, find the musicians, arrange the rehearsals, get everyone music, and then they go off on their own, when there are no apparent interpersonal skill or other problems. I also think the owners' string bass requirement was hokus.

I later see all over the Internet that he has named the trio, and gotten a professional video done. He is listed as the contact for this group, and they are doing music festivals around town.

How would you proceed with this case?

If you want to be called for jazz gigs as a bass player you need to be able to play DB. Also this is not intended as a slight on you but maybe you need to improve your own bass playing. There are people who are my first call musicians whom I know wouldn't call me for gigs...I don't take it personally.

 

[PauFerro]

Having been somewhat in the OP's position (many yrs ago), this is not a music issue, it's a business issue.
If I take the time to get gigs booked, throw work in the direction of certain individuals, and do all the things outlined in the OP, then find out that my first call drummer has formed a band on their own - nothing wrong with that but - using people I have put together (and have worked with and they know) from that relationship... yes, I'm upset.. TOTALLY!!
In the financial world, that is known as "insider trading" - or profiting from others knowledge.
I would drop them to the bottom of my list.. and if they ask why.. you let them know why.
There should be a certain amount of loyalty with the whole thing.. it should not be a mercenary operation!

SoC9 nailed it above. It IS a business issue. And that is how I'm taking it. The hard ball tactics in case musicians steal hard-earned clients is also standard practice in the business world in certain industries. I know that because when I was young and stupid, I was subject to it in a disc jockey service I once ran. I learned my lesson quick to stay away from other people's clients after the hired me on with their firm. To go off on my own, and then steal their clients made them pretty aggressive stopping me. One went back to the client and offerred them a different DJ at half price to slap my wrist.

And many of you have turned it into a dictatorial band member, drama issue unecessarily.

I don't care if the other bass player is better than I am. I don't take it personally. I don't care if they are playing with other musicians on the side. I don't care if the musicians have other projects. All the guys I work with do.

But This situation is different. All part-time. I can do everything the other guy can except for upright, and by the way, their video has the bass player doing electric bass on all songs but one. And no one insists on upright that has ever hired me. They want a "jazz band". And that means a certain style of music.

Anyway, I know what I'm going to do now. No confrontation. Just give him gigs as it pleases me. Explain my reasons if he asks me about it.

 

[Callused Finger]

In the OP you refer to this drummer as being on your call list that you give gigs to.
Later in the thread you refer to it as a band and you feel slighted because he went and formed his own.

Sounds to me like he is the one who formed a band where you put together temporary groups of people for each gig.

God forbid someone creates a band with people they enjoy being around and playing with.