Dude, I was the one who said the "bitter" comment, and I want you to know, I was only joking, OK? I really have no reason at all to judge you, nor does anyone else here.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
How would you react to this?
- Thread starter PauFerro
- Start date
Dude, I was the one who said the "bitter" comment, and I want you to know, I was only joking, OK? I really have no reason at all to judge you, nor does anyone else here.
Maybe he's just not that into you.
Have you really tried to look at the situation objectively? Have you really tried to put yourself in his shoes and reflect on aspects of your management style that might turn a player off?
edit: honest questions, not rhetorical. Objective reflection can be illuminating.
Have you really tried to look at the situation objectively? Have you really tried to put yourself in his shoes and reflect on aspects of your management style that might turn a player off?
edit: honest questions, not rhetorical. Objective reflection can be illuminating.
Like I said earlier, cut him out and make him play bandleader to earn money instead of somewhat depending on you to bolster his living. He made enough for a 1099, that's substantial enough.
I've been BL, sideman, band member and everything else, I know how it feels.
The least he could have done out of professional courtesy was to tell you he had formed a group that was HIS new number one, I mean cmon, he didn't cut YOU a 1099 for all the money you made on his back as a rider. Everyone says "burning bridges..yadda yadda,"...seems to me he burnt it with a shady move to form something and compete in the open market. Fair enough. You cut him out completely and he's left to book his new trio he will feel the pinch soon enough, and you will still have your regular clients because YOU built those relationships. Now he has to start at square one instead of benefiting from your efforts so casually, with nary a THANKS in your direction....
I've been BL, sideman, band member and everything else, I know how it feels.
The least he could have done out of professional courtesy was to tell you he had formed a group that was HIS new number one, I mean cmon, he didn't cut YOU a 1099 for all the money you made on his back as a rider. Everyone says "burning bridges..yadda yadda,"...seems to me he burnt it with a shady move to form something and compete in the open market. Fair enough. You cut him out completely and he's left to book his new trio he will feel the pinch soon enough, and you will still have your regular clients because YOU built those relationships. Now he has to start at square one instead of benefiting from your efforts so casually, with nary a THANKS in your direction....
Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question. Have you communicated all these expectations and complaints to your drummer? How is he supposed to know what's going on inside your head?
Lack of communication is the number one cause of interpersonal relationship difficulty. That was my point.
Thanks Mellowinman -- I agree with the first part of the last sentence, but people here are awful quick to judget sometimes. For a place meant to post band management issues, people here can be pretty frustrating when they jump to conclusions, resort to sweeping generalities about your personality, assume unrighteous dictatorship and so on. There are times I wish I knew everyone's backgrounds so I can judge who to listen to and who to ignore. Certainly anyone who has been involved in hiring people for jobs (like the engineering consultant above) understands this is a BUSINESS situation, and not a friend band, not a hobby band etcetera. That business is partly built on giving this for that, on preserving relationships, and not acting ways that threaten other people's business interests.
Conflict is an inherent part of business and relationships. And it's not a programmed decision where it's always clear what to do in every single situation.
The other thing you run into in this forum is that everyone thinks you're a "drama queen" because you post about conflicts in your groups. I once tried this -- had a few regular posts about how well everything was going (as it has in the last year or so when I have been silent). Rather than getting 50 engaged posts to your thread, you two "great job!" "I'm glad it's going well for you". And no progress is made either.
My thanks goes out to the people who focus on providing analysis of the situation and potential solutions to the problem without making assumptions about the OP's character. As well as mature perspectives on what I am thinking of doing.
Yah, like dude communicated he formed a new group with one of dudes players that is his number one to promote publicly????? Nice communicating for sure....
Nev -- doesn't look like you read some of the thread above. The expectations were set a while ago. We knew that part of the deal was sending gigs my way. If I was going to give him all these gigs out the sky at professional rates then I expected him to book gigs for the group as agreed. His willingness to do that was what prompted me to bring him on as 1st call guy. He salved his conscience by telling me a half-truth about the purpose and nature of the band, and then turned it into a directly competing group. I won't repeat it all.
Again, you post here to get perceptions and angles you might have thought of, while not letting all the crap people post (personal attacks, assumptiosn about your character, pejorative labels) get to you. Talking comes later, if that is decided to be the best thing.
Communication has to be ongoing when it comes to personal relationships. You are treating this situation like a business. You had a deal, he made an agreement, and now he broke the agreement and so now there are consequences.
But here you are seemingly asking for validation from others which tells me that on some level this is personal to you. If it was strictly business, this thread should not even exist.
Is he a friend or a business partner in music? You should never mix the two.
Here is just a simple question in the name of objectivity.
Is the drummer absolved from any responsibility here? Or is he just the recipient of an unwarranted character assassination.
It's not hokus. When it comes to playing certain styles of jazz, a lot of people tend to go gaga over the string bass, both clients and other musicians. It really boils down to this....the drummer you mentioned has formed a trio that is providing a "unique" niche product that you cannot produce. If you want to compete in this niche market you need to play string bass. That's what I would do.
Actually, we do. But it's a judgement only based on what we're being told by the OP. "This is Sparta" so to speak. We're responsible for - and can be held accountable - for what we say here. It's a discussion forum.
And while I can sympathize with the OP a good deal (having been in similar situations myself - and in absolute agreement with him that your word should be your bond) I don't agree with his feeling (if I'm reading him right) that an immediate tit for tat is the way to respond right now. But that's me. And he's not me.
I just pop my tuppence in the pot, and hope it benefits somebody. Whether they see it my way or not.
Music is art, chemistry either is or isn't. Chemistry isn't I give you a job therefore you must use me. Obviously he found something with them he didn't have with you. In other words, it's a relationship and he's just not that into you. Based upon your attitude though I think it makes it more clear why
thanks for the humble, open response. I appreciate it. Tit for Tat is the language of business in my view. I'm bound by it in my own business transactions. If I don't reciprocate when people give me business, then their business dries up. Therefore, I expect others to reciprocate and live by the same laws I'm subject to (natural laws), particularly when it is agreed to in advance. Shame on this drummer.
Were your rules about this kind of business situation covered in the PowerPoint presentation, and did he sign off on it?
No it was not in the powerpoint -- but he was different. He came to me in response to an ad for a "Salesperson/Drummer" I placed on Craigslist. it described the dual role of drummer and salesperson, with the salesmanship every bit as important as his musicianship. So, the expectation was covered verbally on two occasions. He has been through the powerpoint, though, and understands that too. He is not a friend either, but a business acquaintance.
I have three different bands, and he is first call in all of the bands, unlike the musicians in the other groups. I really gave him a lot of work, positions, options to learn new stuff. He wasn't a great player when he came to me either but as it happens, the more you gig, the better you get.
This relationship has worked out very well for the last couple years now. I'm sorry he's decided to do what he's done.
I have three different bands, and he is first call in all of the bands, unlike the musicians in the other groups. I really gave him a lot of work, positions, options to learn new stuff. He wasn't a great player when he came to me either but as it happens, the more you gig, the better you get.
This relationship has worked out very well for the last couple years now. I'm sorry he's decided to do what he's done.
I'm glad you used the word seemingly above. I posted the OP believing that certain answers like "get over it, it happens, he doesn't owe you any thing" responses, laced with personal attacks about character were things I would not listen to. If I believed it should be something I should take passively, the thread wouldn't exist.
I believed some form of action was necessary, ranging from cutting him out of the network of musicians completely, to talking to him and expressing "surprise" at what he has done. But I wasn't sure what. The fact that this is about business doesn't mean this post doesnt' have to exist. In fact, it requires careful consideration.
Can't say I read every post in this thread but I'm guessing this drummer is hedging his bet. Despite all the work that you've provided for him, he may not want to have you as his main/ only gig provider. This might be why he looked to go off on his own a bit more. Also, he may have originally thought this was going to be a one off only to find out he very much enjoyed the company and music made with this group of musicians. He then may have decided to make it a formal band, but without revealing this arrangement to you. judging by your reaction he may have been on to something.
Agree.
But by tit for tat I meant more of a pissing match trading blows. I didn't mean that you shouldn't proceed based on how things went in the past. That's just good business to not deal with bad businessmen if they continue to behave in such a manner. Because like it or not, we're all businessmen on some level.
Some other poster mentioned earlier that you missed your calling as an agent, and I tend to agree.
Almost all of your posts over the years demonstrate a very business like approach to making and selling live music.
Almost all of your posts over the years demonstrate a very business like approach to making and selling live music.
wmhill
Inactive
- Aug 20, 2012
- 4,054
- 17,209
- Disclosures
- MTD basses endorsed artist Bartolini pickups emerging artist TECAMP bass players gear endorsed
that's the way it goes- you don't have an exclusive on any musician out there. If it bothers you that much , move on down the list.
