How would you react to this?

[onlyclave]

I'm an active local musician/electric bass player and I have a group of musicians I call in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order for gigs. I have a drummer who is first call. I bring him a lot of gigs, judging by the size of his 1099 at the end of the year.

Anyway, he called me a while ago asking if I would mind if for a couple gigs at a restaurant not far from him, if he could use our piano player (2nd call guy) and a string bass player for the gig. His reason for this was the owner "wants string bass" and I'm an electric player. I said fine, but indicated that if I was going to call him first for all the gigs I have, I'm expecting to be part of the gigs if the instrumentation is the same (piano, bass, drums) that he books.

Personally, it irks me when I bring musicians a lot of work, find the musicians, arrange the rehearsals, get everyone music, and then they go off on their own, when there are no apparent interpersonal skill or other problems. I also think the owners' string bass requirement was hokus.

I later see all over the Internet that he has named the trio, and gotten a professional video done. He is listed as the contact for this group, and they are doing music festivals around town.

How would you proceed with this case?

You don't play double bass. He owes you nothing.

Play double bass, get reciprocal calls for gigs.

If you pay the guy on a 1099 then he's just a contractor to you anyway. He owes you nothing. Get over yourself.

 

[39-Bassist]

If you feel he's not doing the right thing then properly communicate with him your concerns and see if there is a workable conclusion. If not then if you have him contracted to finish some gigs for you then either have him finish them and put him on the 2nd level of call. If you can't work things out, then tell him thank you for his services and move on.
Communication is the BIGGEST thing right at this time. Just my opinion and how I would try to work things out.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I used to work with a bandleader who would no longer give out phone numbers of any of the guys he hired when someone called wanting to get in touch with any of them. He had a few guys poached and didn't want to have it happen again.

So to the OP: you should have just said no in the first place.

The thing is, people are so easy to find and communicate with these days. Saying no is just going to make you look like a butt because the guy asking now has to use google for 5 minutes to track the guy down (assuming he has an internet presence, and basically anyone who is anyone will have at least something small).

 

[TripleDouble]

Sounds like you need to have musicians sign an agreement/contract/MOU as to how all these situations are to be handled and what is expected when they enter your talent roster. If it's an exclusive contract, or there are expectations for them to comply and respond in a certain way, it should be known. But it might be too late, as this has the smell of rebellion! The stench of revolt! The reek of insubordination!

Yeah, I just dropped Matilda lyrics.

 

[placedesjardins]

I'm an active local musician/electric bass player and I have a group of musicians I call in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order for gigs. I have a drummer who is first call. I bring him a lot of gigs, judging by the size of his 1099 at the end of the year.

Anyway, he called me a while ago asking if I would mind if for a couple gigs at a restaurant not far from him, if he could use our piano player (2nd call guy) and a string bass player for the gig. His reason for this was the owner "wants string bass" and I'm an electric player. I said fine, but indicated that if I was going to call him first for all the gigs I have, I'm expecting to be part of the gigs if the instrumentation is the same (piano, bass, drums) that he books.

Personally, it irks me when I bring musicians a lot of work, find the musicians, arrange the rehearsals, get everyone music, and then they go off on their own, when there are no apparent interpersonal skill or other problems. I also think the owners' string bass requirement was hokus.

I later see all over the Internet that he has named the trio, and gotten a professional video done. He is listed as the contact for this group, and they are doing music festivals around town.

How would you proceed with this case?

I've never been in that position. But if that's how he goes about his business, I would just look for another drummer as your first call. It seems like he wants to build a band with a certain sound. Nothing wrong with that. It was the way he went about getting the pianist.

 

[carl h.]

I've never been in that position. But if that's how he goes about his business, I would just look for another drummer as your first call. It seems like he wants to build a band with a certain sound. Nothing wrong with that. It was the way he went about getting the pianist.

He hired the OP's #2 pianist, not his #1. It is unreasonable to expect loyalty from a sub.

It's a part of the industry. Make peace or don't, you're the one losing out if you choose not to.

 

[placedesjardins]

He hired the OP's #2 pianist, not his #1. It is unreasonable to expect loyalty from a sub.

It's a part of the industry. Make peace or don't, you're the one losing out if you choose not to.

The rough and tumble underworld of piano, bass, and drums jazz trios.

 

[Freez]

This.

Sounds like you need to have musicians sign an agreement/contract/MOU as to how all these situations are to be handled and what is expected when they enter your talent roster. If it's an exclusive contract, or there are expectations for them to comply and respond in a certain way, it should be known. But it might be too late, as this has the smell of rebellion! The stench of revolt! The reek of insubordination!

Yeah, I just dropped Matilda lyrics.

Here are my thoughts. Nothing personal here, just cold hard facts. You have referred to these people as your clients. That description isn't really accurate; you have no clients, because you have no written contracts. What you think and feel doesn't matter. If you want to stay in business, you have to run your business LIKE a business. Term contracts, non compete clauses, heirarchy, etc (where allowed by law of course, consult an attorney). Those contracts go both ways; you need to be able to perform consistantly as well. From the sounds of it you are able to do that, which makes it all the more perplexing to me why you DON'T have some sort of contractural relationship with your, well; let's call them patrons, for lack of a better term. You clearly take this very seriously, and act as if it's a legit business. But the fact of the matter is, you haven't (and you can't) prove that you are "owed" anything, at least not to any sort of legal standard. Without written agreements, it's all just sour grapes. Judge Judy would chew you up in about five minutes...

 

[madbass6]

dude just suck it up , find other musicians and start over! what else can you do ? good luck!

 

[Jazz Ad]

There are a lot of good ways to lead a business. Revenge isn't one of them. As said, it's business and taking it personally is very bad.
If you go after somebody's head, you will spend a lot of time on it and it will eventually kick you back where it hurts.
I also dislike having a main contractor. Rather, I have a shortlist from which I pick equally, which is what you plan to do in the future. This is good practice, you bring enough work so you get appreciated but nobody depends on anybody else.

What I am about to say does not bear on the current situation, but on gig sharks in general -- people who are in your band, start their own band, and then low ball all your clients, take the musicians you put together, and create headaches for your pocket book.

I think there is a ton you can do. I am of the mind you have to prevent people from ruining all your hard work, stealing the clients you found, making the musicians you oriented unavailable for your own gigs, incurring extra rehearsals with subs (and the quality problems that often results), -- all that is blood sweat and tears and it needs to be "defended" against competition - particularly from people who you trusted wtih all the inside information by giving them the priviledge of getting paid and being part of your project. If you wan to respond to these kinds of things -- when there is outright gig-sharing you can do the following. I have never done it before, but if I had blatant gig sharking by someone in one of the bands I formed, I would do this.

a) Go after the gig sharker's clients until he sees the wisdom of leaving yours alone. Make sure he knows that's why you did it.
b) Poach his musicians for better paying gigs. Make sue he knows the only reason that is happening is because he is gig sharking your clients.
c) Shut him out of all future gigs with the band.

All with the clear communication this is happening because he is taking advantage of your hard work, reducing your gig schedule, diluting the pay in the market, and causing you extra rehearsal. You can use it as a conversation piece to figure out what might need to change in the original band that prompted the guy to go out on his own in the first place. It means there should have been communication earlier on to figure out what prompted the guy to off on their own.

The other thing I have done is up my marketing efforts to find new clients, Keep your own musicians so busy they don't have time for other bands or for going after your clients.

 

[Bass'd on a true story]

I think maybe the reason he didn't tell you that he was starting this thing is because he thought you might blow it out of proportion... cough... cough...

 

[mellowinman]

Thanks Mellowinman -- I agree with the first part of the last sentence, but people here are awful quick to judget sometimes. For a place meant to post band management issues, people here can be pretty frustrating when they jump to conclusions, resort to sweeping generalities about your personality, assume unrighteous dictatorship and so on. There are times I wish I knew everyone's backgrounds so I can judge who to listen to and who to ignore. Certainly anyone who has been involved in hiring people for jobs (like the engineering consultant above) understands this is a BUSINESS situation, and not a friend band, not a hobby band etcetera. That business is partly built on giving this for that, on preserving relationships, and not acting ways that threaten other people's business interests.

Conflict is an inherent part of business and relationships. And it's not a programmed decision where it's always clear what to do in every single situation.

The other thing you run into in this forum is that everyone thinks you're a "drama queen" because you post about conflicts in your groups. I once tried this -- had a few regular posts about how well everything was going (as it has in the last year or so when I have been silent). Rather than getting 50 engaged posts to your thread, you two "great job!" "I'm glad it's going well for you". And no progress is made either.

My thanks goes out to the people who focus on providing analysis of the situation and potential solutions to the problem without making assumptions about the OP's character. As well as mature perspectives on what I am thinking of doing.

I'm hip. I've been judged harshly on this forum myself, and its funny; I've played with some sketchy cats who think I'm a control freak; drama queen; dictator; *******, but I just got done playing with seasoned pros tonight, and I mean actual industry people, and they all find me not only nice, but very ready to compromise at every turn. And that's because they're all so good, and so professional, that I can count on them to blow me away with everything they do, and I feel lucky to jam with them at all.

I mean, if I'm playing a minor chord, and the lead guitarist plays a major run over it, we are going to have a conversation that we just shouldn't need to have, right?

I try to take every opinion into consideration when I read this forum, but some are obviously throwaways. I'm guessing you've been around long enough to spot those.

 

[PauFerro]

There are a lot of good ways to lead a business. Revenge isn't one of them. As said, it's business and taking it personally is very bad.
If you go after somebody's head, you will spend a lot of time on it and it will eventually kick you back where it hurts.
I also dislike having a main contractor. Rather, I have a shortlist from which I pick equally, which is what you plan to do in the future. This is good practice, you bring enough work so you get appreciated but nobody depends on anybody else.

This is what I am going to do from now on. I think. There have been times when I wanted to use a different drummer for a project because i wanted to experiment with original music at the gig (most of the cats can read charts flawlessly on sight), and this other guy was better at connecting with the feel and vibe of the song. But I felt I had to give him the gig given the 1st call paradigm.

I think everyone needs to drop the "taking it personally vibe" though. I am concerned about the gigs I'm not getting that don't require upright, that he's not reciprocating according to our agreement, and that he was shady in getting me to "agree" to this other band for a one-off, which he turned into a professional band that essentially competes with what I do. I still don't buy the upright thing as full justification either. As I said, I have never had clients ask specifically for upright bass, question the electric, or anything. It's a musician preference, not a client one.

Also, whoever said I consider the musicians clients isn't reading the thread right. Clients are the people who pay me to perform and are not musicians. Musicians are the people who play for the client. I never implied anything different from this.

 

[Downunderwonder]

The claim of regional difference gives me the I bet if you gave all your clients the choice of upright at no extra cost they would jump at it.

So you are correct to be wary of the new group coming after your existing gigs. They won't have BL overhead in their price structure making them cheaper to boot.

 

[PortlandBass77]

I don't understand why you feel you should have a say about his band? It's your choice if you hire him or not and it's his choice if he hires you or not.

 

[russosborne]

I may have missed it, but does this other band only use DB, or do they also use EB?
If only DB I don't see where you have any room to complain.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Russ

 

[Downunderwonder]

I don't understand why you feel you should have a say about his band? It's your choice if you hire him or not and it's his choice if he hires you or not.

OP never claimed voting rights, you're making that up.

What hasn't been completely spelled out is OP develops gigs in new venues by wearing some of the cost of employing pro musicians himself for a trial gig. They keep a dinner crowd in for a couple or three more drinks. Everyone's a winner eventually.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Honestly, even if they don't use string every gig I still don't see an issue (beyond the lying about it to you).

There seems to be a very fundamental difference between how you run a group and how the drummer runs one. The drummer has a band in the sense that this guy is the drummer, that guy does bass, and the other guy does keys. Sure, they might have subs, but that's the band.

What you seem to have is a contract group where you're the band. You're the one being hired to play. Everyone else is just a contractor filling a role. Your 1st chair drummer might have been your go-to, but was he ever really the drummer for the band or just a guy you hired for a number of gigs?

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I'm an active local musician/electric bass player and I have a group of musicians I call in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order for gigs. I have a drummer who is first call. I bring him a lot of gigs, judging by the size of his 1099 at the end of the year.

Anyway, he called me a while ago asking if I would mind if for a couple gigs at a restaurant not far from him, if he could use our piano player (2nd call guy) and a string bass player for the gig. His reason for this was the owner "wants string bass" and I'm an electric player. I said fine, but indicated that if I was going to call him first for all the gigs I have, I'm expecting to be part of the gigs if the instrumentation is the same (piano, bass, drums) that he books.

Personally, it irks me when I bring musicians a lot of work, find the musicians, arrange the rehearsals, get everyone music, and then they go off on their own, when there are no apparent interpersonal skill or other problems. I also think the owners' string bass requirement was hokus.

I later see all over the Internet that he has named the trio, and gotten a professional video done. He is listed as the contact for this group, and they are doing music festivals around town.

How would you proceed with this case?

Tl/Dr the whole thread so only addressing the original post.
React to what? Your hired guns got together and formed a band, they are getting work, and competing with you in an open market.
You can choose to work with them again, or not?
Your choice! You apparently we're not keeping them busy enough, and in their idle time they are playing out. So they are less available to do gigs with you, so therefore they naturally fall down the list of potentials, and since you know they're collective schedule, it's a quick check to see if you should bother to call them.

I'm confused? Is your money greener or something? Did you have an agreement? A contract?

If it gets under your skin that much, cut them all off.
Or continue to call them when you need to.

 

[PortlandBass77]

OP never claimed voting rights, you're making that up.

What hasn't been completely spelled out is OP develops gigs in new venues by wearing some of the cost of employing pro musicians himself for a trial gig. They keep a dinner crowd in for a couple or three more drinks. Everyone's a winner eventually.

I don't understand your response at all? Either I'm missing something or you replied to the wrong post? I am not trying to make this political at all and I will leave this thread immediately if someone is stupid enough to try to do so.