Double Bass How would you solo over these vague chords?

[PauFerro]

I have another question. I gigged pretty regularly with this former Tommy Dorsey band keyboard player. Once, we had a singer in and started playing pop tunes. He made the comment that it's always a "crap shoot" to figure out what to with chords when all you get is "A" or "C" with no seventh or other defining characteristics.

Also, everything I have learned in jazz improvisation has relied heavily on chord information such as major sevenths, minor sevenths, flatted fifths etcetera.

I fall into the category of feeling a bit lost when I see chords without much information in them. Take this song for example, which is a folk rock feel:

In the Summertime
(Key of G)

Verse
| G Am | G/B Am| G Am | G/B D|
| G Am | G/B Am| G Am | G/B D|

Chorus
|Em |A |C |D |

That's the guts of the song. How would you solo over it when there is so little harmonic information about the chords? (This also addresses what Pat Metheny said about his song Bright Size Life -- it included triads which he said addressed "fear of triads" from jazz musicians).

 

[jj.833]

I don't know the song. It's likely not blues, so I'd avoid using minor pentatonics over major chords and other blues parafernalia.

The song is in G major, so you might use all tones from G major scale (G A B C D E F#).

You don't have to think about sevens, you can just use G major scale tones whathever sounds nice, landing on 1-3-5 of a given chord for release. But if you need more guidance, you can "jazz up" the chords by stacking scale thirds: G is G B D, add another scale third = F# you get Gmaj7. Ami goes to Am7, Em to Em7, C to Cmaj7, D to D7. D is a dominant here, don't be afraid to make the 7 loud and clear here.

The only exception is A major in the chorus. A implies major third = C# instead of C. If there is no reason to do otherwise, keep the other tones in G major (A B C# D E F# G), so "jazzed up" the chord will be A7. If it's a pop song, it's quite likely the A will be quite short and there will be no market for harsher inovations.

Having said all that, don't be afraid to experiment. If you feel scale soloing is boring, use anything you are used to use in jazz. Excursions elsewards are welcome even in pop. Have fun!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Technically, single uppercase letters denote major triads. I would need to see the melody to tell more.

 

[JBarz]

Respectfully, there is nothing remotely “vague” about these chords. This a very simple, almost entirely diatonic (one scale - G) tune. If this is confusing for you, I suggest you throw out everything you’ve “learned” so far and just try to sing new melodies over the tune. Then, try to find those sung licks, lines, phrases on your bass. It’s that simple. Don’t over complicate a thing - life is complicated enough on its own.

 

[JRA]

 

[Groove Doctor]

I would think in flowing harmony lines, not block chords….

Chorus
|Em |A |C |D |

Chorus
|Em7 |A |C |D7 | -> (G)

You could add a nice descending bass line D C# C C B with the above chord sequence. Or a B A G F# G harmony line.

Loop a recording of the chords and start singing improv melody lines.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The song is very simple harmonically.
In the first part it stays completely in G major.
In the second part only the A leaves G major because of the C# in it. But with the following C it is in G major again.

You wouldn’t have had a problem if it would have been Am, then it would be all in G major. They put some spice into the harmony by using A instead.

You can see Em A (C) D as a II-V-I to D, but the C before the D brings it back to G major, so C D G is IV-V-I.

In bebop you often have II-V without the resolution to the I.

But it would be also correct and what you hear when you play that Em is the VI of G major, but then due to the A afterwards gets reinterpreted as the II of D major. So the A has a dominant function even though the resolution is missing or delayed with a reinterpretation as dominant to G.
So A and the D after the C have a minor seventh in scale that can be used in the chord.

The reinterpretation/replacement thing is often used to give the expected root note (or at least some expected note) but with a different function than expected by changing some notes.

Interesting harmony plays with the expected not always being delivered.

BTW, pop chords typically have a seventh mostly in the dominant chords. An add2 6 or 6add2 is more common than maj7 for major chords. At least for harmonically simple songs.

You can always get the other notes by analyzing the function. And if there is no need to change a note in the scale from one chord to the next they typically stay the same.

 

[Papageno]

How would you solo over it when there is so little harmonic information about the chords?

What more information do you need about chords? It seems to me they perfectly define the harmony of the tune.
When chords are written as minor or major chords, they are simply triads. If you understand basic harmonic analysis, the harmony of the tune should be no mystery to you.

If it is musically and stylistically appropriate (you and your band mates have to make up your mind on this by using your ears, experience and taste) you may chose to extend these to tetrads according to the suggestions made by jj.893.

For extensions beyond tetrads (or more accurately, for passing tones) you simply pick diatonic notes of G major.

 

[mtto]

If you need more information to inform your creation of a new melody over a set of chord changes, look to the original melody.

In this case, G major pentatonic. Learn the melody on your instrument.

Sequence motives from the melody through the G major pentatonic scale: D E G G G, E G A A A, A B D D D would be the head motive of the melody.

Chromatic passing tones between ^6 and ^5, as well as ^2 and ^3 will be in character for this song. Country blues vibe.

If I wanted to play out on this tune, I’d start with major pentatonic scales that have an interesting relationship to the original harmony and melody: D, A, Ab, and Eb major pentatonic scales. D major pentatonic introduces no notes outside the tonality, but provides a different color over the changes. The other scales introduce more tension and interesting relationships to the tonality.

 

[AGCurry]

... look to the original melody.

This right here. You will not go wrong starting there.

 

[Steve Freides]

we had a singer in and started playing pop tunes. He made the comment that it's always a "crap shoot" to figure out what to with chords when all you get is "A" or "C" with no seventh or other defining characteristics.

Also, everything I have learned in jazz improvisation has relied heavily on chord information such as major sevenths, minor sevenths, flatted fifths etcetera.

There are kinds of music other than classical and jazz. Start with the style of the music. Make up a bass line to little kids' songs like Mary Had A Little Lamb and Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. Make up a jazz-chorded version of Twinkle, Twinkle then write a bass line for it. Play country, play bluegrass. (All those things could/should be done before attempting jazz.)

Change all the chords in a standard to triads, e.g., for All The Things You Are: Fm, Bbm, Eb, Ab, Db, G, C. Cm, Fm, Bb, Eb, Ab, D, G. Does it change your bass line? Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't.

-S-

 

[james condino]

Do you play any other instruments besides the bass? I often find learning / practicing a tune on multiple different instruments usually opens up new ways of thinking about the song and how I approach it. Sometimes a difficult struggle on one suddenly becomes very easy on another; especially true if switching from fourths to fifths tunings.

Fiddle tunes on guitar can seem unnaturally difficult and contrived, but then if I switch to mandolin everything makes perfect sense. I often hate the Key of C major but somehow A minor is effortless; funny how that works...

 

[Ganagogoon]

I have another question. I gigged pretty regularly with this former Tommy Dorsey band keyboard player. Once, we had a singer in and started playing pop tunes. He made the comment that it's always a "crap shoot" to figure out what to with chords when all you get is "A" or "C" with no seventh or other defining characteristics.

Also, everything I have learned in jazz improvisation has relied heavily on chord information such as major sevenths, minor sevenths, flatted fifths etcetera.

I fall into the category of feeling a bit lost when I see chords without much information in them. Take this song for example, which is a folk rock feel:

In the Summertime
(Key of G)

Verse
| G Am | G/B Am| G Am | G/B D|
| G Am | G/B Am| G Am | G/B D|

Chorus
|Em |A |C |D |

That's the guts of the song. How would you solo over it when there is so little harmonic information about the chords? (This also addresses what Pat Metheny said about his song Bright Size Life -- it included triads which he said addressed "fear of triads" from jazz musicians).

A meaty vibrato speaks a thousand notes

 

[bass183]

Respectfully, there is nothing remotely “vague” about these chords. This a very simple, almost entirely diatonic (one scale - G) tune. If this is confusing for you, I suggest you throw out everything you’ve “learned” so far and just try to sing new melodies over the tune. Then, try to find those sung licks, lines, phrases on your bass. It’s that simple. Don’t over complicate a thing - life is complicated enough on its own.

Exactly. Just play what you hear & what you can sing. The verse is in G major. The A triad (that C#) in the chorus takes you out of Gmaj and maybe hints at D major, but hard to say without hearing the melody. Make it simple. Start with a rhythmic idea and one or two notes. Pop music is simple. Don't add all those chromatic enclosures or bebop licks. They won't work.

 

[PauFerro]

Do you play any other instruments besides the bass? I often find learning / practicing a tune on multiple different instruments usually opens up new ways of thinking about the song and how I approach it. Sometimes a difficult struggle on one suddenly becomes very easy on another; especially true if switching from fourths to fifths tunings.

Fiddle tunes on guitar can seem unnaturally difficult and contrived, but then if I switch to mandolin everything makes perfect sense. I often hate the Key of C major but somehow A minor is effortless; funny how that works...

Yes, I play the piccolo bass, which I know is a bass, but it has a distinctive sound to me, and its only characteristics. I play guitar, and about 2 years ago picked up an electric wind instrument (EWI) that I play a lot (but my improv skills are still in development). I may try different instruments to see how they sound.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Compose a melody over the sound of the chords that sounds interesting to you. ANY notes are fair game, as long as you think it sounds cool. The notes of a chord DO NOT dictate what you play over them. Also, when it comes to having a "fear of triads", i would think us bassists would be immune to such a fear Triads are commonly the bread and butter of our lines in most music.

 

[mtto]

While it is true that the notes in a chord do not dictate what you could or should play over them, it is also (IMO) the place to start. Mastery of chord tone improvisation is a fundamental skill.

Bass players are often called upon to play unaccompanied solos, or the comping is minimal. If the chord of the moment is G major, someone needs to play G, B, and maybe a D (less important to play the 5th) or the audience will not hear a G major chord.

Once you can improvise with chord tones, add neighbor and passing tones.

One of my teachers had me call out the chord changes while playing the menuets from Bach’s 1st cello suite. It’s a good lesson in outlining chord changes with a predominantly single note line.

 

[Papageno]

If what bothers you is that the chords have no seventh specified, this is because the harmony is essentially triadic.

A lot of early jazz tunes are like that, and the improvisations those cats played where also mostly triadic. Still this makes really good music.