Huge amps and back trouble?

[Mook]

Decible: a logarithmic scale used to denote a change in the relative strength of an electric signal or acoustic wave. It is a standard unit for expressing the ratio between power and power level. Using the logarithmic relationship for power PdB = 10*log[Pout/Pin] , a doubling of electrical power only yields an increase of +3 dB. Increasing the power tenfold will yield an increase of +10 dB and is a doubling of perceived loudness. The decibel is not an absolute measurement, but indicates the relationship or ratio between two signal levels.


Never said I was a "physicist", I just said this is a physical principle.


Look.....I love SVTs. I do. In fact, I have TWO of them. And, I agree, they DO give up the TONE. However, my whole point is, what if you can get the same tone for a WHOLE lot LESS backache? And, I'm NOT talking solid state.

If ya want, we can continue this thread in a decent manner and talk about how we can get good/better tone at smaller poundages and not having to lug 85 pounds of amp head.

But, based on the "so you think you are a physicist" and similar remarks, perhaps we can just let this thread die.....

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Decible: a logarithmic scale used to denote a change in the relative strength of an electric signal or acoustic wave. It is a standard unit for expressing the ratio between power and power level. Using the logarithmic relationship for power PdB = 10*log[Pout/Pin] , a doubling of electrical power only yields an increase of +3 dB. Increasing the power tenfold will yield an increase of +10 dB and is a doubling of perceived loudness. The decibel is not an absolute measurement, but indicates the relationship or ratio between two signal levels.

Yup, db scales logarithmically.

Never said I was a "physicist", I just said this is a physical principle.


Look.....I love SVTs. I do. In fact, I have TWO of them. And, I agree, they DO give up the TONE. However, my whole point is, what if you can get the same tone for a WHOLE lot LESS backache? And, I'm NOT talking solid state.

If ya want, we can continue this thread in a decent manner and talk about how we can get good/better tone at smaller poundages and not having to lug 85 pounds of amp head.

But, based on the "so you think you are a physicist" and similar remarks, perhaps we can just let this thread die.....

I don't understand the point in the thread tbh? The manner in which to gain volume by increasing power/the laws of how these things work is covered in other threads several times a week, if you start acting up and posting some iffy information, you'll find people who call you out on it.

Also, I'll add that those laws apply to SS amps just as it does to tube amps.


Most of the weight in big tube amps is in the transformers, if you want a tube amp which has less weight, look for one that doesn't use lead sled esque transformers!

Look at the Peavey VB-3 for instance, 300 watt tube amp and it only weighs 37lbs!

 

[CL400Peavey]

Hey now dont get your panties all in a bunch...

You are just treading on territory most of us spend a long time and a lot of $$ to get to.

If I was going to go light weight I would get a rack mount sans amp and a new peavey ipr 1600. 1600 watts of very good tone. weighs a quarter of my current head.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Hey now dont get your panties all in a bunch...

You are just treading on territory most of us spend a long time and a lot of $$ to get to.

If I was going to go light weight I would get a rack mount sans amp and a new peavey ipr 1600. 1600 watts of very good tone. weighs a quarter of my current head.

Nice call, I'm quite tempted by the Genz Benz Shuttle series as a lgihtweight backup/alternate amp!

 

[CL400Peavey]

Nice call, I'm quite tempted by the Genz Benz Shuttle series as a lgihtweight backup/alternate amp!

I want to retube my head, and I wouldnt mind picking up a lightweight rack mount set up (as a dirty tone back up, as I have a clean tone back up, Mark VIII ). The retube has to come first, and with 14 tubes its not going to be cheap for parts.

Still would lug around the 810 though...

 

[Mook]

Look at the Peavey VB-3 for instance, 300 watt tube amp and it only weighs 37lbs!

Had to look up this amp -- haven't heard of it until now. Yes, I agree, the weight is associated with the transformers, and in general, more watts of tube tone = beefier trannies.

I'd wonder how this Peavey holds up.....seems to me 8xEL34s might fry those small trannies.......

 

[CL400Peavey]

Had to look up this amp -- haven't heard of it until now. Yes, I agree, the weight is associated with the transformers, and in general, more watts of tube tone = beefier trannies.

I'd wonder how this Peavey holds up.....seems to me 8xEL34s might fry those small trannies.......

I have heard good reviews, and a few bad. My problem is that its list price is crazy. I know its a 300 watt all tube head, and I love my PV gear, but come on for that price not many people will touch it.

 

[MegaSwing]

The bottom line is you can't rely on someone else's sensibility to get the set of trade-offs that will result in the tone you like.

Whatever you're playing, I hope you like it and don't use it because it's the cool thing to be seen with. I don't care what the other guy is playing or lifting, as long as I'm happy with what I'm playing and lifting.

Everything else is just an argument over how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

 

[randysmojo]

Can't someone make a tube amp in two cabinets? One with the tranny and one with everything else!

 

[solodb]

I've got almost all heavy amps and cabinets and have had lots of back aches. But the backaches were not from moving the heavy bass and P.A. gear- they were from stupid , twisting lifts of other stuff without properly warming up or lifting the wrong way. Having said that, I'm gassing for the 28 lb. GK MB112. I am trying to convince the wife it could replace her 50 lb. PV keyboard amp. I am a terrible person.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Can't someone make a tube amp in two cabinets? One with the tranny and one with everything else!

Pre amp power amp rigs exist....

 

[randysmojo]

What kind of all tube power amps are out there? I was jokingly meaning to put all power amp parts in the preamp cab also, and just move the tranny out to make it as even as possible in weight, but power amp separate from the preamp is actually something that never crossed my mind with tube amps.

 

[CL400Peavey]

What kind of all tube power amps are out there? I was jokingly meaning to put all power amp parts in the preamp cab also, and just move the tranny out to make it as even as possible in weight, but power amp separate from the preamp is actually something that never crossed my mind with tube amps.

They are out there... They are just crazy expensive, and heavy...

 

[BogeyBass]

Why bring a HUGE SVT or Reeves or /13 or Ashdown (amps that weigh 85lbs+++)???

You can slave one 50 watt amp into another 50 watt amp and have even MORE volume!

What say u?
Mook

It is a good idea with tube amps. Mainly because of weight and carry in. Similar to taking a 2x15 and split it in half to 2 small 1x15.

Likewise with tube amps the best tone and volume will come from more speakers. The problem with more speakers is the impedance drops to 2 ohms.

Most people dont understand how horrible 2ohm taps sound, and how much frequency loss there is to make a high current transformer winding.

So likewise your 50watt idea is good but give it a bump to 100watts which still uses lighter transformers. Most likely you could run 2 100 watt amps. To get a lighter load in, and to take advantage of 8ohm or 4ohm taps and still be able to run matching speaker pairs.

Likewise instead of trying to make a low cost 100watt transformer. (most are) you could increase the weight of the transformer for higher quality windings. and still not have a overkill amount of weight.

If it was properly designed and the speakers are matching. A "master" "slave" amp system is a pretty cool thing in my book

most SVT 300watt transformers are about 19 to 21 pounds.
without getting people to upset, the quality is not very high. and it would take a much larger core around 26 to 30 pounds to actually have a high quality 300 watt transformer.

low cost 100watt transformers mainly found in guitar amps are 6 to 8 pounds. Likewise I propose for bass use a high quality transformer in the 10 to 12 pound range. Weight doesnt guarantee performance, the quality of the core, wire and interleaving methods do. Usually a heavily interleaved transformer will end up being heavier since the core is much larger.

RCA patented and published a ideal transformer for Ultra Linear tube amplifiers. It was heavily interleaved and did not include low impedance taps. All music instrument amplifiers pretty much ignored RCA's recommended methods because the weight and cost is higher. And interleaved taps require multiple connections which requires a switch to go between different taps. Unlike most amps which have a single connection for each tap.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Mook, if you mean that slaving two 50W amps will give you more volume you are correct. However getting to the power levels of the amps mentioned in the OP would require five or six of them That would add up to greater weight than the more powerful amps. There simply is no free lunch.

The more interesting question that comes to mind is how you are going to connect the output of these slaved amps into a speaker system?

 

[CL400Peavey]

...how you are going to connect the output of these slaved amps into a speaker system?

I believe with some sort of wire...

 

[Pilgrim]

You don't need a big amp to get big sound and big headroom. Messing around with a 50W amp is pretty much pointless unless you need it for practice or a very low volume application. Granted, those do exist.

Check the new Class D amps... I'm extremely happy with my Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0, which has a tube preamp and puts out 600W peak into 4 ohms. It weighs all of 3.75 POUNDS...and it's not by any means the high end of powerful G-B lightweight amps.

 

[WingKL]

I'm surprised there aren't more more people who slave a smaller tube head, taking it's speaker output into a dummy load or real speaker and putting it into a lighter weight but more powerful solid state power amp. That would be close to the best of both worlds.Only drawback would be the extra setup required.

 

[Mook]

Once again, I think this thread should be dedicated towards TUBE amps.

While I have NO problem with solid-state, and I even have 2 solid-state amps, this thread is about TUBE amps, only.

The idea is: How can I get an *awesome* tube tone (via tube amp) and NOT break my back.

Mook

You don't need a big amp to get big sound and big headroom. Messing around with a 50W amp is pretty much pointless unless you need it for practice or a very low volume application. Granted, those do exist.

Check the new Class D amps... I'm extremely happy with my Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0, which has a tube preamp and puts out 600W peak into 4 ohms. It weighs all of 3.75 POUNDS...and it's not by any means the high end of powerful G-B lightweight amps.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Decible: a logarithmic scale used to denote a change in the relative strength of an electric signal or acoustic wave. It is a standard unit for expressing the ratio between power and power level. Using the logarithmic relationship for power PdB = 10*log[Pout/Pin] , a doubling of electrical power only yields an increase of +3 dB. Increasing the power tenfold will yield an increase of +10 dB and is a doubling of perceived loudness. The decibel is not an absolute measurement, but indicates the relationship or ratio between two signal levels.


Never said I was a "physicist", I just said this is a physical principle.

It is a physical principle, but it has no bearing on what happens when you use two 50 watt amps, which is you get 100 watts.

The idea is: How can I get an *awesome* tube tone (via tube amp) and NOT break my back.

You don't. The simple fact of the matter is that tube amps are heavy.