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Huge difference in tone between post-EQ feed to PA vs amp tone.

#41
Actually, a lot of FOH engineers have no problem with bass, or understanding how to get good tone. The problem is that many bands (and their audience) think they want to feel the kick and bass which means that a compromise gets made and ultimately the tone suffers. It’s become so pervasive that it’s now hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle.

As an FOH engineer for 40 years, I had to deal with this dilemma all the time. It’s one thing that kept me away from mixing the heavier genres. The other things were the sheer volume and the more abusive nature of the tours.
 
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#43
caballero59 said:
Could you explain this a bit more? This seems like a critical point that is not often discussed.
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It started as PAs became more capable and the younger crowd wanted to take advantage of it.

We always wanted a little more extension in the low end, but it ultimately became too much of a good thing and went from a benefit to a big issue among some in the industry BUT that’s what many in the audience wanted so with some genres it became acceptable and then desired.
 
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#44
agedhorse said:
It started as PAs became more capable and the younger crowd wanted to take advantage of it.

We always wanted a little more extension in the low end, but it ultimately became too much of a good thing and went from a benefit to a big issue among some in the industry BUT that’s what many in the audience wanted so with some genres it became acceptable and then desired.
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In your opinion, what should the kick and bass be HPF'ed at?
 
#46
We used to always come to the gig early, trade guitars with the lead player, amble to the board and hear what's going out to FOH. I'm reasonably good enough to crank out some chords and riffs so our guitarist gets an idea of his main tone as well. Chat with the sound guy ( slip him a 50.. I like that ..lol ) tell him what's happening on stage and see what he suggests for any compromises that can work. I always (nicely) asked for a mic AND DI if possible. If not, I go with Pre-DI. I know I'm not ( or rarely)gonna get a practice or bedroom sound on stage, so I cut the serious lows and highs at the amp as much as I can without gutting my sound completely and work with the low/high mids onstage . The sound guy will fill in those cuts at the board, he'll fill the hole out in the venue where it matters. It's just how we did it back in the day...I guess we cared enough to get our asses there early and get it right. We also trusted and respected the sound guys and when they know that.... they will bend over backwards to help. They're reputations were on the line too. Not being preachy , just how we did it back then.
 
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#47
As a retired live sound engineer I agree with agedhorse. I think that the last few decades have produced many mixers, in Rick/pop/ genres at least, that are too focused on the low frequency aspect of a mix. I hate being at a show and really not getting why it takes 2-3 songs to get the vocals happening properly. And I mean bigger shows where they definitely did a soundcheck.
It seems to me that they are shaging with the kick instead of getting a rational balance first.
When I’d mix a band at a club or festival on the house board first thing once getting a good balance of elements would be to knock all the crazy eq the last guy put on the kick. Like 10+ db boosts at 40hz and 5k.
And yes bass guitar is often too loose and low.
I liked micing bass for the built in roll off of specific mics and cabs like svt 810s.
I’ll skip shouting at clouds about thin sounding line arrays with no good mids for vocal reproduction….
 
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#48
Ampslut said:
Like I wrote earlier, mic-ing the cab at this point may be the easiest solution.
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Mic-ing is also a nightmare in terms of dealing with different room acoustics, the potential for feedback, and the potential for bleed from other instruments.

To get the cabinet sound without any of those problems, a cabinet Impulse Response (IR) used with convolution would work better. I'm a laptop-enjoyer, but a purpose made Cab-Sim pedal can do the trick.
 
#49
lyralain said:
Mic-ing is also a nightmare in terms of dealing with different room acoustics, the potential for feedback, and the potential for bleed from other instruments.

To get the cabinet sound without any of those problems, a cabinet Impulse Response (IR) used with convolution would work better. I'm a laptop-enjoyer, but a purpose made Cab-Sim pedal can do the trick.
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Some of the best sounding shows I’ve been to had a mic’ed bass amp. It’s not like with the amount of mics on a typical stage that a bass cab mic is going to be the one that ruins everything ;)
 
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#50
JimmyM said:
Some of the best sounding shows I’ve been to had a mic’ed bass amp.
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Just recommending a modern solution that is both kind to your engineers & consistent between shows.

An Impulse Response perfectly captures the sound of a specific cabinet with a specific mic at a specific placement & angle in a specific room. There's obviously less flexibility in this, but that's a benefit here- you find the cab IR you like once, and it just works anywhere you take it.

With actual mic'ing, you'll need to position your mic right every time, position the cab itself in a good spot relative to the room's acoustics, and position both in a place where they won't run into feedback and bleed issues. With a CabSim pedal, you just plug-in and send that to front of house.

Mic'ing can be done, and can be done well, of course. But it's a lot more work and has many variables that can go wrong.
 
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#51
lyralain said:
Just recommending a modern solution that is both kind to your engineers & consistent between shows.

An Impulse Response perfectly captures the sound of a specific cabinet with a specific mic at a specific placement & angle in a specific room. There's obviously less flexibility in this, but that's a benefit here- you find the cab IR you like once, and it just works anywhere you take it.

With actual mic'ing, you'll need to position your mic right every time, position the cab itself in a good spot relative to the room's acoustics, and position both in a place where they won't run into feedback and bleed issues. With a CabSim pedal, you just plug-in and send that to front of house.

Mic'ing can be done, and can be done well, of course. But it's a lot more work and has many variables that can go wrong.
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Ya, there are some folks using them, but you’re making way too much out of micing a cab. It is nowhere near the ordeal you make it out to be.
 
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#53
lyralain said:
Fussing about optimal sound quality is why I'm an audio engineer :) The suggestion will make you sound better, give house engineers less work, & replaces a mic+stand to carry around with a pedal. Can replace having a cab at all, too. But do as you wish!
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I haven't heard a guitar speaker for ages. Tube amp --> Reactive Load --> IR --> PA. It never sounds as inspiring as the amp-in-the-room (to me) but I want to hear what the audience hears and tweak and optimize that. Bass cabs likely aren't as bad but guitar cabs are a beamy one-trick pony.
 
#54
lyralain said:
Fussing about optimal sound quality is why I'm an audio engineer :) The suggestion will make you sound better, give house engineers less work, & replaces a mic+stand to carry around with a pedal. Can replace having a cab at all, too. But do as you wish!
Click to expand...
An experienced audio guy’s first and most important lesson learned is that everything about audio is a compromise, and that there is no single perfect solution to obsess over.

The second is to show up on time and prepared.
 
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#55
It started to be discussed in these last post but the over all PA system EQ maybe a giant smile face and the sub to top balance way out of alignment.
How does generally everything else sound in the PA, is there a lot of low end on playback music.

A low end heavy mix that muddies up everything in the mix is bad and what even sounds worse is when someone does not have nearly enough sub for the PA and pushes what they have well beyond what they can do!
 
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#56
agedhorse said:
An experienced audio guy’s first and most important lesson learned is that everything about audio is a compromise, and that there is no single perfect solution to obsess over.
Click to expand...
If somebody needs to buy a mic & stand (or mistakenly rely on a venue to have one that pairs well with your cab) or to buy a CabSim pedal for roughly equal cost- why wouldn't you choose the option that allows you to roll up with the same tone every time with no extra work for anybody involved and less stuff to carry? Tradition? Some woo about the vibes that come from capturing real air?

Talking in circles here but yes, you can mic a cab well, but it's not benefitting you or your engineers in any way to choose that option unless you're already equipped for it and don't feel the added expense of convolution pedal is worth the peace of mind.
 
#58
lyralain said:
If somebody needs to buy a mic & stand (or mistakenly rely on a venue to have one that pairs well with your cab) or to buy a CabSim pedal for roughly equal cost- why wouldn't you choose the option that allows you to roll up with the same tone every time with no extra work for anybody involved and less stuff to carry? Tradition? Some woo about the vibes that come from capturing real air?

Talking in circles here but yes, you can mic a cab well, but it's not benefitting you or your engineers in any way to choose that option unless you're already equipped for it and don't feel the added expense of convolution pedal is worth the peace of mind.
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Nobody goes out of their way to make my job any easier. And other than setting up a mic and stand (which if it's that big an ordeal, you chose the wrong profession), it just plain isn't that hard.

Having said that, I dropped the mic after experiencing too many sound techs who should have just rolled with it instead of freaking out like you're doing.
 
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#60
JimmyM said:
And other than setting up a mic and stand (which if it's that big an ordeal, you chose the wrong profession), it just plain isn't that hard.
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I have an experiment for you to try. Put a mic in front of your cab of choice, record some playing. Tilt that mic slightly angled to the speaker, record some more. Reposition the mic to various points on the speaker, do the same. Now put the cab in a different location and repeat.

Tell me if they all sound identical, or if there's pretty significant differences in certain notes appearing and disappearing. If you notice that they're different- now imagine that instead of being in a home/studio environment, you're in a chaotic venue under a time crunch having to contend with many other sound sources that also need adjustment and limit where you can place your cab+mic due to the risk of bleed.

If this compromise is accepted and an imperfectly mic'd signal is used, an engineer can try to fix the note balance issues that appear with compression. A noise gate can shut out bleed from other sound sources. But in using them, they're altering the dynamics & the timbre/tone of the bass in a potentially undesirable way.

Live mic'ing presents challenges, these challenges can be overcome with effort & compromises. Why compromise, when you can consistently sound your absolute best with minimal headache? Seems like a win for all involved.
 

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