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Hybrid Technology - Discussion

AmazingGracePlayer

AmazingGracePlayer

Oct 8, 2006
3,193
3
Summit, NJ
www.google.com
#1
How far are hybrid cars going to get? GM is investing billions into making the Chevy VOLT (electric car, still uses gasoline but a lot less than hybrids). Honda is investing into diesel fueled cars, and Toyota and Nissan are investing in improving their hybrids...

I'm planning on buying a car before next summer, and I was wondering if I should buy a used conventional car or wait another year or two and get a new hybrid car?
 
#4
My mom's Prius was just over $20,000 and gets 43 mpg consistently. The big realization for me was that yeah, it is a little wussy car with hardly any acceleration but bottom line... it gets more mileage out of 10 gallons than mine does with 16gal.
 
#6
Bad Brains said:
How do you charge an electric car? Wouldn't what you save on gas go towards paying your higher electric bill which charged the car?
Click to expand...

A 100% electric car, yes, but the hybrids use a gasoline engine to charge the battery, which powers the electric motor for assisting the engine.
 
#7
Bad Brains said:
I'm not one for being a conspiracy theorist, but I believe the technology is there, but it won't be taken seriously as long as oil runs the planet.

How do you charge an electric car? Wouldn't what you save on gas go towards paying your higher electric bill which charged the car?
Click to expand...

Energy has never ever been free... the matter with this cars is that the energy being use to move them, wherever it comes from (electric from a power station, or from a hydrogen fuel cell), is cheaper than fuel.

The actual problem with fuel cells is that hydrogen cant be stored neither permanently nor safetly.

But hybrid cars are in fact a stupid solution... a diesel car gets better mileage and has an overall best performance if needed, something a hybrid hasnt.
 
#8
The Chevy Volt is going to vastly different than the current generation of hybrids. As I understand it, it's an electric car, the only thing the gas engine does is run a generator. On all other modern hybrids, both the electric and the gasoline motor are connected to the drive wheels. On the Volt, only electric drives the wheels. No doubt GM is leveraging their experience with the EV-1 pure electric car here.

Problem is the Volt is a "plug-in" electric car. If you have a garage with a power outlet, and are only using the car for commuting, you're good to go, if not, it's definitely NOT the car for you.

I'd buy a hybrid, they get great gas mileage. What's the point of waiting for the next best thing if you need something now?
 
#9
The theory behind the hybrid is that you only need a tiny little engine to supply the average power required for driving, with batteries providing the energy reserve for acceleration. The other trick with hybrids is that you can slow the car down by letting the electric motor operate as a generator to recharge the batteries. This "regenerative braking" recovers energy that is otherwise dissipated as heat in a conventional car.

In my view, the first generation of alternative cars (yes, even the Prius) will be designed to satisfy drivers that we don't have to give up size or performance. Also for the time being, there is only one Prius, so it has to satisfy the widest possible market.

Personally, I don't need GM to prove to me that I can have a giant SUV with bone crushing acceleration, because I don't need or want such a thing anyway.

In the future, I think that car makers will look for niche markets, and there will be cars that are tailored to our individual needs. For instance, I don't need a big fast car. I would be willing to give up acceleration in order to have even higher mileage. Given that my family already has a conventional car, our second car could be an all-electric with severely limited range. It just has to carry an upright bass.
 
#10
Philbiker said:
The Chevy Volt is going to vastly different than the current generation of hybrids. As I understand it, it's an electric car, the only thing the gas engine does is run a generator. On all other modern hybrids, both the electric and the gasoline motor are connected to the drive wheels. On the Volt, only electric drives the wheels. No doubt GM is leveraging their experience with the EV-1 pure electric car here.

Problem is the Volt is a "plug-in" electric car. If you have a garage with a power outlet, and are only using the car for commuting, you're good to go, if not, it's definitely NOT the car for you.

I'd buy a hybrid, they get great gas mileage. What's the point of waiting for the next best thing if you need something now?
Click to expand...

The Chevy Volt is a PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Eclectric Vehicle) meaning that it has the "Option" of being plugged in. The idea is that for the first 30 or so miles you are running on just electricity, after that the gasoline engine kicks in to generate the electricity. This means that you will conceiveably be getting much better mileage than a non plug in Hybrid but the point is you don't have to plug it in if you either can't or don't want to. The big question mark where the Volt is concerned is whether or not GM can produce it at an affordable price and if the new Lithium batteries designed for it are safe and reliable. I've been following this story and it's really quite interesting technology. Needless to say, there are going to be some amazing changes/advancements in transportation in the next couple of years.

George
 
#12
X Wolf said:
The Chevy Volt is a PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Eclectric Vehicle) meaning that it has the "Option" of being plugged in. The idea is that for the first 30 or so miles you are running on just electricity, after that the gasoline engine kicks in to generate the electricity. This means that you will conceiveably be getting much better mileage than a non plug in Hybrid but the point is you don't have to plug it in if you either can't or don't want to. The big question mark where the Volt is concerned is whether or not GM can produce it at an affordable price and if the new Lithium batteries designed for it are safe and reliable. I've been following this story and it's really quite interesting technology. Needless to say, there are going to be some amazing changes/advancements in transportation in the next couple of years.
Click to expand...
Major engineering problem with electric cars is climate control. The heat on a conventional car runs off the radiator fluid, and is basically just the heat of the engine. Electric cars can't work that way as I understand it. And electric heat is not very efficient. Take that 30 mile range and make it 10 miles in the winter. And how about A/C? Same deal - runs off the engine with a belt to the compressor. Load on a conventional ICE is nominal, on and electric car it's a big deal.
 
#13
Philbiker said:
Major engineering problem with electric cars is climate control. The heat on a conventional car runs off the radiator fluid, and is basically just the heat of the engine. Electric cars can't work that way as I understand it. And electric heat is not very efficient. Take that 30 mile range and make it 10 miles in the winter. And how about A/C? Same deal - runs off the engine with a belt to the compressor. Load on a conventional ICE is nominal, on and electric car it's a big deal.
Click to expand...

You are right of course that there are always new challenges with new technologies but I believe they will be solved and hopefully soon. vehicles like the Volt and the next generation Prius and others are only the beginning. I'm really interested in what science comes up with in the next few years.

George
 
#16
Bad Brains said:
I'm not one for being a conspiracy theorist, but I believe the technology is there, but it won't be taken seriously as long as oil runs the planet.

How do you charge an electric car? Wouldn't what you save on gas go towards paying your higher electric bill which charged the car?
Click to expand...

The basic technology to do hybrids is here, but it's incredibly expensive, involves acquisition and use of rare earth metals to make the magnets for the electric motors. Actually, if the cost of neodymium speakers in bass cabinets go through the roof, remember you heard it here first.

With the exception of Toyota, nobody is making money on hybrid vehicle sales. The cost to make the hybrid is THOUSANDS of dollars more than they sell for. Toyota has only recently started making a profit on hybrids. And that's because they've been at it the longest and have worked on reducing the cost of their systems.

As for the cost of electricity, off-peak recharging would cost pennies per day. In case you're wondering, hybrids, diesels, and fuel economy technologies are my day job.

Peace,

James
 
#17
vene-nemesis said:
...But hybrid cars are in fact a stupid solution... a diesel car gets better mileage and has an overall best performance if needed, something a hybrid hasnt.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Depends on your use cycle. For people who do a lot of in-city driving, hybrids are typically better. The engine is completely shut off when the vehicle is at idle, so you are using NO FUEL when you are stuck in traffic or stopped at a light. You can also, in some cases, drive short distances at low speed with the engine completely off. This also helps tremendously with emissions.

Diesels are better for vehicles that have a lot of towing or hauling requirements or that do a lot of highway driving. The additional workload has very little impact on the vehicle's operating efficiency. The biggest problem with diesels is cleaning up the emissions. It's possible, but it's very expensive. In some cases, almost as expensive as adding a hybrid powertrain.

Peace,

James
 
#18
iamlowsound said:
Well all the people that want great acceleration will be umping all over the electric cars once people realise that they don't have a torque curve. It is all there, right away, all the time.

lowsound
Click to expand...

Yeah... all that POWER!!

The prius forums have given me so many LOLs. They have this huge discussion on how the Prius has a faster 0-6 (yes 6) mph speed than a ferarri enzo. A car forum I was at read it for a lot of good laughs. The people legitimately thought that a faster 0-6 time meant their car had better overall performance than the race-bred enzo.

Performance cars will NEVER die. The number of people who can afford them will change, sure... but they aren't going anywhere.

At this point, discussing the "performance" of hybrid cars is a waste, IMO. That isn't the point of them by any means. If you're buying a hybrid for any other reason than better mileage and getting a car better for the environment, you're kidding yourself.
 
#19
Philbiker said:
The Chevy Volt is going to vastly different than the current generation of hybrids. As I understand it, it's an electric car, the only thing the gas engine does is run a generator. On all other modern hybrids, both the electric and the gasoline motor are connected to the drive wheels. On the Volt, only electric drives the wheels. No doubt GM is leveraging their experience with the EV-1 pure electric car here.

Problem is the Volt is a "plug-in" electric car. If you have a garage with a power outlet, and are only using the car for commuting, you're good to go, if not, it's definitely NOT the car for you.
Click to expand...

You nailed it. We ( I work at GM and am involved in hybrid, diesel and EV programs) don't even refer to the Volt as a hybrid. We refer to it as an Extended Range Electric Vehicle. A hybrid has both an internal combustion engine and an electric motor that both contribute to moving the vehicle. With the Volt, the vehicle is ONLY moved by electricity. The only purpose of the engine is to keep the batteries charged.

Philbiker said:
I'd buy a hybrid, they get great gas mileage. What's the point of waiting for the next best thing if you need something now?
Click to expand...

I'd say just buy a vehicle that suits your needs and gets good fuel economy. There are plenty of cars that get 30+ mpg. Most of them cost significantly less than similar hybrids. For some people, a hybrid is the best thing. For others, any high fuel economy vehicle, gas, diesel, or hybrid could work.

Peace,

James
 
#20
X Wolf said:
The Chevy Volt is a PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Eclectric Vehicle) meaning that it has the "Option" of being plugged in.
Click to expand...

Sorry. You have this part wrong. The Volt is not a PHEV. It is an Extended Range Electric Vehicle. At some point it will need to be plugged in to be operated. In theory, after an initial plug in, you can continue to operate the vehicle by using the gas engine to recharge the batteries. That sort of defeats the purpose of being able to operate for approximately 40 miles without turning on the gas engine.

At about the same time the Volt goes on sale, Saturn will launch a Saturn VUE PHEV.

X Wolf said:
...The big question mark where the Volt is concerned is whether or not GM can produce it at an affordable price and if the new Lithium batteries designed for it are safe and reliable. I've been following this story and it's really quite interesting technology. Needless to say, there are going to be some amazing changes/advancements in transportation in the next couple of years.

George
Click to expand...

There are test vehicles driving around the Detroit area. You wouldn't recognize one if you saw one, because they are modified from older Malibus. Even with the wrong bodystyle, wrong tires, wrong aerodynamics, the battery packs are getting more than 40 miles before engine kicks in. Bob Lutz drove one last month and was very impressed with the progress made on the batteries.

Peace,

James
 

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