Double Bass I’m trying out a Schertler DYN-B ...

[bolo]

I have a demo Schertler DYN-B on loan from Link Removed. So far I am intrigued in many ways by what I hear, and a little puzzled in others.

To my ears, when it works right, it definitely sounds more like a mic, and therefore more like an acoustic double bass than the other pickups that I have tried (K&K Bass Max, K&K Double Big Twin, Upton Rev SOLO).

But the DYN-B also seems to have its own set of idiosyncrasies, some rather acute (in my limited experience). So please ... in order to get the most out of it during this trial, I think I could use some advice.

As background, I am running the DYN-B into a D-TAR Solstice preamp and then into an Euphonic Audio iAMP-200C combo. The EQ is set flat on both units. I will eventually try blending it with my AMT, but I haven’t gotten quite that far yet.​

1. Placement seems to be crucial. Even moving the pickup 1/8” in any one direction effects the sound on my bass. So where is the sweet spot on your bass?

2. When I move the pickup around, I seem to get the best results when I reform the green putty "worm" before trying it in a new spot. This seems like a pain in the arse when I only want to move it a fraction of an inch. But I guess this putty and the air pocket it forms are crucial to the way the p/u was designed to work. Does this sound like what you’ve experienced too?

3. The unit really picks up body resonance, including feedback at times. In some spots it sounds very "boxy." I realize the inside of a DB is like a box, sort of. I am dampening the afterlengths of my strings, but I'm still nagged by feedback at times and open strings ringing unless I dampen them with my left hand. Thoughts?

4. Bonus question: There is a black plastic dial that functions as a phase inverter. Which may is “normal”?

Thanks in advance.

 

[flatback]

Welcome to the Dyn B. What you are experiencing is what I think a lot of us have gone thru (some more then once) All I can say is, if you really like what you think, if that thing worked, it would sound like, go thru the pain of getting a Vektor installed. It has all of the best and none of the worst of the Dyn B.

 

[PB+J]

bolo:

I sent you some of my results before--I found it was boomy in some places, and yes it's more prone to feedback than a piezo, but right away it sounded so much better than either the realist or the rev solo. The phase reversal switch really works for me--I don't think there is a normal position. The schertler manual just says "set it to the postion where it sounds best, and if there's feedback, switch it to the other position." Did you try getting it closer to the bridge?

I have it set up so there's very little putty on the thing, and the fit is very close. It's a pain to reform it each time, but on my bass, I didn't have to do a lot of switching around, I set it between and below the bridge feet, thought it was too boomy, noticed when I moved it towards the treble foot it got less boomy, and after a couple gigs wound up where it is now, which I'm very happy with

I've read that a lot of people like to notch out some of the frequencies around 80 hz--have you tried that? I would say the dyn-b is kind of midrangey, and while that sound works well in the mix, it often sounds kind of harsh solo'ed

I'm extremely happy with mine, good luck with your trial

 

[Adrian Cho]

Bolo

Yes the placement is very crucial. When I used it (on two different basses), I generally put it directly under the bridge or a inch or two lower and generally a little bit over to the bass side of the body.

I agree that the putty ring needs to be reformed. The thing is that the middle of the transducer needs to be contacting the body but with just the right amount of pressure.

The body resonance is the big problem and the Vektor can suffer from the same problem although it doesn't have the boxiness and nasal problem that the Dyn-B can have at times. Essentially this is all feedback (see below).

I have found that the need for the notch filter like the one on the Pre-A II varies.

In summary, both the Dyn-B and the Vektor are great because they don't suffer from the electric tone of most piezos. The problem is that they can be prone to feedback in some cases and I don't mean the squealing or howling kind. On my current bass for example, the body resonance is strong and I often especially get excessive resonance on the B on the G string and too much bass. I am using a Vibramute from Lemur which fits between the strings at the afterlength and it helps to a degree but I still need to be careful. The whole situation can be made worse if the speaker is connecting excessively with the floor so I often find myself raising it if necessary. As for the phase inverter ring on the Dyn-B, I don't know what the "normal" setting is but you should always play with it to ensure it's in the "right" position given your setup at the time.

Adrian

 

[Monte]

Can't add much but to echo much of what Adrian said. I find notching out that frequency to be the most important. Once I did that, I don't really have to futz with placement that much. I put it about 1-2" below the bridge mostly between the two feet. I finde most of the problems people report with the Dyn B have to do more with what they are playing through than the transducer. If you have a truly neutral system (NOT A BASS AMP IN MOST CASES) with enough headroom and decent eq, I believe you can get a very natural full sound.

 

[flatback]

Hey Adrian
welcome back how've you been? In my experience with the Dyn B I would find a place that it sounded good at home and almost inevitably the conditions at the gig would cause a huge fuss. Almost every time. Seemed like it was always more then one thing working against me (feedback, body resonance, floor coupling, amp difficulties, phase, volume etc.) The Vektor if it is installed correctly and is seated properly (at least on my one bass) has feedback problems caused by standing waves (open string) only at loud volume right next to the amp. Moreover, most of that could be fixed with a high pass or notch.
I think that the Dyn B is a product that is not finished. There must be a way to create a contact mic using the elements that are good about the Dyn B and get more usable results more of the time on more basses. The Vektor solves a lot of problems and adds a few: your bass has to have a root canal to get the thing installed, but when you tap your bridge leg or sing next to it and can hear, that it IS a mic but way down in the part of the bass that carries most of the sound, but is protected from bleed and feedback by all the wood of the bridge leg, you realize that it is perfectly placed.
I don't want to discourage you Bolo, but all the things you point out about the sound don't just go away at some point, they are always there. I just found that it was too many variables to take to a gig...with a drummer. (without a drummer a lot of things work...)

 

[PB+J]

Interesting--I haven't had any of these problems. I found a good spot for it with little fuss, I run it into an avalon U5, a power amp, and an epifani ul110 and rarely need to mess with the eq; I've sometimes had feedback troubles but nothing insurmountable

I haven't had it a year yet, but I'm pretty impressed so far. Maybe it really is just very sensitive to the bass it's on?

 

[flatback]

Hey p butter,
Well you sure were right about the U5. man, that is the best amplification money I ever spent. I need to get a little soldering happening to try the Vektor with the U5 and I'm glad to hear you are running a "mic" thru it with good results. I dont mean to be such a pessimist about the Dyn B, but it costs a fortune (for what it is) and for that kind o money to just get frustrated (especially when the company rap is so good) was, well... frustrating. What kind of bands do you play with?
anyway. what the hell do I know....

 

[bolo]

bolo:
I sent you some of my results before--I found it was boomy in some places, and yes it's more prone to feedback than a piezo, but right away it sounded so much better than either the realist or the rev solo.

Hey pal. Yes, I remember and I appreciate all the prior info and the pic you sent me re: your DYN-B. I was just "reaching out" with this thread to all the DYN-B users I could find. I even emailed Adrian and Monte and asked them for help. You guys are all great. No bulls&*t. This is what I had hoped for.

The phase reversal switch really works for me--I don't think there is a normal position. The schertler manual just says "set it to the postion where it sounds best, and if there's feedback, switch it to the other position."

Understood. However, the purist in me wants to know which way is normal or "in phase", but I agree it's a no brainer to tell which one works better in any given setting.

Did you try getting it closer to the bridge?

Yup, I'm trying it all over the place. Henry from the Double Bass Workshop suggested over the soundpost about like halfway, with the other half more toward the center of the table. In between the bridge feet also works okay for me. But like I said, a small movement on my bass sometimes seems to lead to strikingly different results. My bass is very resonant, which from some of the posts that follow yours might work against me.

I've read that a lot of people like to notch out some of the frequencies around 80 hz--have you tried that? I would say the dyn-b is kind of midrangey, and while that sound works well in the mix, it often sounds kind of harsh solo'ed.

Understood. All of it. Also I will give a cut at 80 Hz a try. Enter the iAMP.

I will also respond to the other posts as time permits and as I experiment more. I have a gig Thursday night in a room with lots of crowd noise. Oh boy.

Genuine "Thanks!" everybody.

 

[bolo]

I have it set up so there's very little putty on the thing, and the fit is very close.

The way I read the owner's manual, I agree using just enough putty is the right way. But I also interpret the owner's manual to mean that the "dome" on the bottom of the pickup should be firmly touching the table of the bass ... No?

I agree that the putty ring needs to be reformed. The thing is that the middle of the transducer needs to be contacting the body but with just the right amount of pressure.

Like is there an easy way to describe the "right amount of pressure?"

Geez - And I thought wing mounted piezos were finicky.

 

[Alex Scott]

My Experience was weird, I just bought a older bass, and broke the neck off while going through a door, and rented a bass that afternoon to do a gig. It was a cremona bass, and I had it for about a month.

I put the schertler pickup on because it was easy to install, and played some juries at school, and my professors were all like "That is the sound of God."

The bass sucked, and I was running it through a walter woods with a 12" bag end speaker I think.

I also had a tube-mt preamp? Just a little $80 preamp for vocalists.

I may have been running it into the effects loop in an effort to not get the signal choked by going through two preamps- I am not scientific enough to figure why that sound hapens, but it does for me.

I also tried a friend's bass through a GK 115 with the pickup into the return (same preamp) and that sounded really good too.

I have not found that it sounds good with low action, but does sound good with the top really moving. that might be similar to your boxy feeling. Some might be string noise or too much midrange, or too low volume from the bass, too high from the amp.

I found that by getting a better bass sound, it sounded better.

I also experimented with having the preamp volume low, power amp high, preamp high, power amp low etc.

placement is easier if you can get a friend to help move it around with no putty, holding it firmly in different places.

good luck, I may try again someday.

 

[bolo]

The body resonance is the big problem and the Vektor can suffer from the same problem although it doesn't have the boxiness and nasal problem that the Dyn-B can have at times. Essentially this is all feedback.

Thanks so much Adrian. We have missed you. Boy, that boxiness thing is definitely killin' my buzz.

In summary, both the Dyn-B and the Vektor are great because they don't suffer from the electric tone of most piezos. The problem is that they can be prone to feedback in some cases and I don't mean the squealing or howling kind. On my current bass for example, the body resonance is strong and I often especially get excessive resonance on the B on the G string and too much bass. I am using a Vibramute from Lemur which fits between the strings at the afterlength and it helps to a degree but I still need to be careful. The whole situation can be made worse if the speaker is connecting excessively with the floor so I often find myself raising it if necessary.

Understood. And thanks again. I agree the sound of the DYN-B is "natural" in many ways, and as such, like you said it is not what I would call "electric" or "piezo-y". It is a unique sound, and a unique design overall.

FWIW, I use a Vibramute too, and I almost always raise my cabinet off the floor, depending on the venue.

Still puttying around ...

 

[spaghettiwestern]

i'll try to add two comments and ask one question.

1. I started out running my DYN-B into a Mackie (then into a pub 280) and found the sound strangely resonant and 'peaky', with little life. Eventually I picked up a used Pre II A and the sound came alive. I use the resonance filter (at 180 hertz, if i remember right) a LOT. I find I have to cut back on the resonance as I turn my amp up. Makes sense I guess.

2. I don't think there is a "correct" version of in phase. "In phase" only means you're in phase with other things that are making sound: the other mic's / instruments you're mixed with in the PA, the acoustic output of your bass, the sound reflecting off the walls... All this can vary from room to room, so there's no "normal" setting for the phase reversal switch. I just try to remember it's there. When I do, it can work wonders.

3. QUESTION: does anyone else have trouble getting enough highs from the DYN-B? I just can't seem to get enough string noise or finger noise no matter where i put the thing, so I find myself cranking the treble on my Pre II A, and that can add too much white noise to the mix. I feel like the DYN-B has a built in freqency rolloff that I don't want. (and i've often wondered whether the other models for guitar and mandolin might have more high end...)

 

[bolo]

“Chief (Piro), don’t tell me that.”

In my experience with the Dyn B I would find a place that it sounded good at home and almost inevitably the conditions at the gig would cause a huge fuss. Almost every time. Seemed like it was always more then one thing working against me (feedback, body resonance, floor coupling, amp difficulties, phase, volume etc.) ...

I don't want to discourage you Bolo, but all the things you point out about the sound don't just go away at some point, they are always there. I just found that it was too many variables to take to a gig...with a drummer. (without a drummer a lot of things work...)

”Chief, I asked you not to tell me that.”

Well no, I did ask you. Of course I did.

Man, it sounds like you definitely tried to make it work and have lots of experience with it. Thanks for sharing.

Huge fuss on the gig is not where I want to go. But your description is really sticking with me --- almost seems prophetic for where I’m headed with this thing. That's why you're the Chief.

My bass is very resonant. Most of my bandmates are really loud most of the time. Crowd noise is usually a serious problem in many of the venues I play, sometimes REALLY loud, like the band is totally just a background fixture. At times they only seem to notice us when we stop playing, because the reduction in din makes their drunken conversations get awkward all of a sudden.

Now I feel like I won’t even bother taking it to the gig tonight. If I want a loud pickup sound, I still like my Rev SOLO. And during the first set when the room is just starting to fill up, before nuance and subtlety have left for the night, I can hear my AMT just fine.

I really wanna like this DYN-nomite thing, but ... gosh.

Where's Agent 99? I always had a thing for her.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

You have but to ask:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Adrian Cho]

Regarding the right amount of pressure for the Dyn-B, I think the centre should be firmly contacting the wood of the bass. The putty doesn't really let you apply more pressure than that anyway but it is possible to not have enough pressure.

I think there are basses that the Dyn-B simply doesn't work well with. They (apparently) include plywoods but also too much body resonance can induce feedback. As I said, the Vektor has the same problem (not surprising since it works on much the same principle as the Dyn-B) but to a lesser degree. I do feel also that the Dyn-B does have its own specific sound - it's quite natural throughout the range but it can have a tendency to get a bit nasal and boxy although it also depends on what else is in the signal chain. The Vektor is definitely more natural sounding. However there are times (in rare, extreme cases) where I can't get a sound from it that I am happy with and it is those times I wish I had something else to fall back on. Sometimes that can be a stand-mounted mic but that's not always practical.

 

[bolo]

My Experience was weird, I just bought a older bass, and broke the neck off while going through a door, and rented a bass that afternoon to do a gig. It was a cremona bass, and I had it for about a month.

I put the schertler pickup on because it was easy to install, and played some juries at school, and my professors were all like "That is the sound of God."

The bass sucked, and I was running it through a walter woods with a 12" bag end speaker I think.

I also had a tube-mt preamp? Just a little $80 preamp for vocalists.

I may have been running it into the effects loop in an effort to not get the signal choked by going through two preamps- I am not scientific enough to figure why that sound hapens, but it does for me.

I also tried a friend's bass through a GK 115 with the pickup into the return (same preamp) and that sounded really good too.

Hey Alex! Thanks a bunch for your input.

So the Schertler sounded good on a bass that sucked huh? Go figure. Just reading about your other bass with a broken neck makes me wince.

I have not found that it sounds good with low action, but does sound good with the top really moving. that might be similar to your boxy feeling. Some might be string noise or too much midrange, or too low volume from the bass, too high from the amp. I found that by getting a better bass sound, it sounded better.

Yes, all this sure makes sense to me, about getting the top of the bass moving, getting a good acoustic sound and all. FWIW, I think my action is “medium?”

I measured at the end of the fingerboard, from the surface of the board to the bottom of my strings – ½” ~ 13 mm on the E, 7/16” ~ 11 mm on the G.

My bass (with my limited [?] technique) is not exactly a cannon volume-wise. Just sort of, well … “medium.”

In my case with the DYN-B I still can’t seem to get rid of that boxy sound, feedback at less than gig-worthy volumes, the crazy peaks and valleys in resonance, the string to string imbalance, and a lack of treble overall.

good luck, I may try again someday.

Yeah, that’s about where I’m headed with this thing too. I will freely admit that it’s quite likely that these problems or limitations may have more to do with my bass, amp, and my technique rather than the pickup itself. But they is what they is.

Maybe I need the Schertler preamp. But that’s close to a grand for the p/u and the pre …

 

[bolo]

i'll try to add two comments and ask one question.

1. I started out running my DYN-B into a Mackie (then into a pub 280) and found the sound strangely resonant and 'peaky', with little life. Eventually I picked up a used Pre II A and the sound came alive. I use the resonance filter (at 180 hertz, if i remember right) a LOT. I find I have to cut back on the resonance as I turn my amp up. Makes sense I guess.

Thanks gp_bass. I had heard this before, namely that the Schertler preamps really help get the most out of the DYN-B. But even though I am prone to spend freely on bass gear (and not much else - I own a '93 Honda w/ 234,000 miles on it), the DYN-B plus the Pre II A is just too much money for what I think I would gain from it. Namely, a more mic-like sound from a pickup. But for mic-like sound, I already have an AMT, and I think I would prefer to try other mics too that cost a lost less than the Schertler plus the preamp. The Beyer M88 that larry mentions in this thread for example. And the Sennheisers. For that price, how 'bout a Neumann KM-185 like Vunz?

QUESTION: does anyone else have trouble getting enough highs from the DYN-B? I just can't seem to get enough string noise or finger noise no matter where i put the thing, so I find myself cranking the treble on my Pre II A, and that can add too much white noise to the mix. I feel like the DYN-B has a built in freqency rolloff that I don't want. (and i've often wondered whether the other models for guitar and mandolin might have more high end...)

Well, maybe it's my fault, my bass, my amp, et al, but I am experiencing the same thing. Not enough treble. Makes my Rev SOLO sound down right crispy in the upper register by comparison. I know that's not exactly a "natural" DB sound, but to me it can be useful on a gig, especially when I'm flailing away up in TP in a room filled w/ crowd noise.

 

[bolo]

I think there are basses that the Dyn-B simply doesn't work well with. They (apparently) include plywoods but also too much body resonance can induce feedback.

Thanks again Adrian. I guess my DB (with my current technique, my current amps, et al) is one of those basses, unfortunately. My bass is a carved Czech flatback made in 1998 that I purchased new in 1999. It's very resonant.

I actually sent the demo DYN-B back and decided not to purchase it. For posterity, I am compiling a summary for the TB archives which I will post sometime soon.

Again, I don't claim (and don't think I ever have claimed) that anybody else's experience with the DYN-B will be the same as mine. I hope others fare better. Many already do.

But at least now I KNOW what it sounded like on my bass, and I can stop wondering about it. Now I can use that bandwidth in my brain to wonder about other stuff.

 

[spaghettiwestern]

Well, maybe it's my fault, my bass, my amp, et al, but I am experiencing the same thing. Not enough treble. Makes my Rev SOLO sound down right crispy in the upper register by comparison. I know that's not exactly a "natural" DB sound, but to me it can be useful on a gig, especially when I'm flailing away up in TP in a room filled w/ crowd noise.

Actually, I had a marathon double gig last weekend and just to make sure everything was working, I removed my DYN-B, reapplied the same putty (rolling it again in my hands beforehand), and put it back in the exact same spot. When I got to the gig, it sounded awesome, with all the treble I wanted. As close to a mic as it's ever sounded. Maybe I finally got the "right" amount of pressure.

Anyway, I was happy as could be for both gigs, even the really loud one. (Rig was: 1875 Czech flatback > DYN-B > Pre AII > 2 Pub 280s)

It's taken me years to aqcuire all my schertler gear 2nd hand, so just keep an eye out for it and grab it a piece at a time. (Or just move on).

Good luck on your quest.