Double Bass I´m not loud enough

[Eric Jackson]

I play with a 14 piece big band- gets plenty loud sometimes.

I agree with most of what's been posted here. My $.02:

-I've used Polytone, Barcus-Berry, Underwood, Fishman and K&K pickups- IMO the K&K Bass Max is by far the best for overall sound and volume before feedback. Works best into my GK MB150S without a preamp too- hot signal, high input impedance. I'm not much of a gear freak- the fewer cables/ batteries/ gizmos to malfunction, the better. I want a tight, clean sound with a minimun of (quality)equipment and $$ spent.

-Damping is a skill worth honing- your sound will be cleaner if you can prevent everything but the desired note from sounding.

-Remember that what you hear onstage is not necessarily what the audience hears. Roll off some low end, what sounds fat on stage might sound boomy and muddy out front. Low frequencies (below 100 hz) are omnidirectional, they are long sound waves, they bounce off things and orbit the room. Someone 20 feet in front of you will hear much more low end from your amp than you will standing beside it. Get someone whose ears you trust to listen to the entire band from out front, and tell you if your sound and balance within the overall band sound is good. If it isn't, adjust your amp level/ EQ. If it is, don't try to fix what ain't broke. If you can't hear onstage well enough, try changing your position, or your amp's position slightly (raise/ lower/ tilt/ aim it) to try to find a 'sweet spot'.

-If the band gets progressively louder over the course of a set, your getting louder too will only compound the problem. Do you have a bunch of mikes onstage? They will pick up more of your amp sound as you get louder. This can lead to cancellation problems- the bass sound coming from your amp is out of phase with the bass sound coming from the PA. Try to get the band to back off the average volume level a bit, then you have room to get louder as the music dictates.

-Apparently some of the psychobilly guys jam a nerf football between the tailpiece and the top of the bass to reduce feedback. Never tried it, can't offer an opinion.

 

[Bijoux]

Your point about the band getting louder is right on. They do! I shall have a chat with them.

I wonder what other musicians hear when they are listening to albums from the 40's, 50's and even 60's, the Truth is that music wans't loud at all, of course rooms were different too, less carpeting, etc., but in general everybody tended to play acousticly and even the louder bands plyed considerably softer than guys using all kinds of amplification today. I think bass players are more exposed to that truth just beacuse of the nature of our instrument, but it's very simple when you hear the attack of of the instruments and you compare to the sound of the actual note played on drums,piano or anything else you just have to figure out that the guys aren't playing that loud. tell your band mates to hear a lot of Bill Evans.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by HIPFISH
Brian,

I like a gut sound; a Monty Budwig, Paul Chambers sound. When I hear them I hear round lowend, not so much mids. Again, I can capture a cool tone (for my ears) at home, alone. Just wish I could bring this to a LIVE setting.

Keep in mind that solo sound and ensemble sound are two completely different issues. The same frequencies that cause a solo sound to be round and full can often bury it in a mix. To cut through the mix, try boosting frequencies in the 1 to 1.5kHz range, and record the band from about 15' away front and center. What sounds horrid to you when played solo may sound perfect in the mix.

 

[Eric Jackson]

Bijoux-
Interesting point about band volume levels. Back then there might have been a Flintstone PA system for the vocalist, but that was the extent of the amplification. Well into the '60's bass players in big bands pumped the cr@p out of instruments with gut strings and high action in an effort to be heard. Nowadays most young(ish) people expect live music to be the aural equivalent of stickin' yer head out the car window at freeway speed...

The band I play with occasionally goes through an interesting exercise at rehearsal. For a couple numbers we shut off the piano, bass and guitar amps and the whole band plays as quietly as possible. It's a very different, and beautiful, sound.

 

[LarryR]

Thank you all for your input and ideas.

Eric mentions honing a "damping" skill.
I can Absolutely get behind that.

I'll have a heart-to-heart with our drummer. He uses dynamics very well. He's a sensitive musician. He's never played with an upright bass however, so a chat about 'Cause and Effect' is in order.

For my role in all this I'll begin searching this site's TECHNIQUE threads. Thanks again you guys.

 

[Marty Forrer]

To LHbassist, I diagree with your statement about the Barbera pup being direct sounding. I tried Fishman, Barcus Berry, Underwood and Shadow pups and hated all of them. I bought a Barbera, and suddenly my bass sounded like an acoustic bass. I find the Barbera is also ideal for volume situations, I have driven big bands no problem while still retaining the acousticness, unlike the wing slot pups which tend to get mid-rangey as they get louder.
For small jazz gigs I use a GK MB150 laying on its back behind me, pointing straight up. Because it's out of sight to the audience, I have had many bassists and other musos come up and comment on what a loud bass I have! In fact, a drummer who has played all around the world touring and recording with many of the jazz greats told me I had one of the best sounds he'd ever heard!
Of course, as with anything to do with double bass, what works with one bass wont work with another. However, I believe you do a dis-service to the Barbera system, and may dissuade people from using a system which may be perfect for them.

 

[Bijoux]

In fact, a drummer who has played all around the world touring and recording with many of the jazz greats told me I had one of the best sounds he'd ever heard!

Tha is an interesting statment. In one of my basses I have the realistic, underwood and Golden Trinity mic, in some gigs I can get away using only the mic, and I love when that happens because as far as sound goes it doesn't get any better than that. I also like the realistic for low volume situations but whenever I use the Underwood even thru my GK200MB I get all kind of compliments, it's hard to understand, it souns closer to a Fender fretless than it does to an acoustic bass, and I also play with some fantastic drummers that in fact have played with some of my heroes. Anyway, I kep thinking, "why would they like that sound", and I think that is because the sound is very clear, very focus and they can hear every note, besides I try to keep in mind that none of these guys play the bass, so they hardly ever hear anyone practising and getting an acoustic sound, so they don't know how it is supposed to sound in the first place, not like we do anyway, I've been using my underwood thru GK and getting compliments from guys that I thought should know better.

 

[LarryR]

A report on my gig tonite and the "I can't hear myself" syndrome.

I tried all of the suggestions you folks made and the result was 3 jazz sets that were tight, impassioned, greater band interplay and everyone including the audience was very pleased. Me? I'm tickled pink!

The band kept their volumes consistent and never played loud to the point of not easily hearing everyone else.

I kept my mid-EQ solid to keep the Punch and Cut-thru.

I rolled off a little bass to avoid boominess.

I only brought my 1x15 and it was fine. I ran my Eden mono bridged to have headroom.

I basically listened to all your guys' suggestions and Oila! Success!!

Bless You All!!! ...and goodnite.

 

[Alex Scott]

in addition to all that has been said, it might be important to set your volume level before your eq. Be a little aggressive, it's doubtful someone will complain about the bass being too loud, that is usually more easily accomplished by the drummer, who thinks he is Tony Williams, the guitarist, who is deaf and just came from a rock gig, the trumpet player who thinks he's playing lead in a big band during the society gig, or the screaming alto player who plays in more r&b bands then jazz quartets.

In all seriousness, the eq tends affect the sound in different ways at different volume levels. If you have it set perfect for a softer volume, then crank the power amp, or adjust the pre amp, you could have disaster.

For what it's worth, I also think it's possible to avoid a too mid-range driven sound and still be clear. It's just a lot of work and pre-hearing how you want to sound. When I'm swetting up, I do a lot of comparison, like play a few notes acoustically, get the volume set on the amp, make a mental note, adjust the eq a little, turn the volume down, play acoustically, and readjust until the are as similar as possible. You can also spend thousands trying out every pickup, I would start with maybe a realist, try some schertler stuff, then maybe one of those bridge systems like barbera or wilson. you might want to check out how your heroes sound live and what they are using.

A lot of people here will say the sound comes from your hands, I think that's an old jaco quote, so be careful if that isn't the sound you want. My experience tells me the sound comes from your head- you have to conceptualize your sound before your hands can stumble upon it. If you don't conceptualize your sound, it won't happen, you might end up with that convienient and just fine midrange sound. You sound like you have a better vision than that.

Best of luck to you

 

[LarryR]

Alex,

Thank you for your post and for yet another thing to remember: to not sacrifice my vision for simply being heard. I know one thing, I proved last night I can use a 15" speaker effectively, which (for me) comes closest to achieving the sound I have in my head; gut, older 40's sound.

Effective EQ, band awareness, damping (thank you Brianroust) and having someone else play my bass at soundcheck while I circled the club all helped to provide a pleasurable evening.

Thanks again man.