I don't know if she is - but as the father of two kids who were once two, a lot of two year olds have learned well how to manipulate.
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I Am The Bad Guy
- Thread starter deeptubes
- Start date
I don't know if she is - but as the father of two kids who were once two, a lot of two year olds have learned well how to manipulate.
You mean like -
1) Fall down
2) Look around the room to see if anyone observed the fall
3) If observer, then cry. If no observer, no cry.
Wow... you must not have kids.
So what are we calling it when a two year old invokes intentional deception (either commission or omission)? It ain't lying?
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There's a difference between innate, learned, and manipulative activities.
Does your dog manipulate you when it scratches at the door?
Manipulate: to manage or influence skillfully, especially in an unfair manner.
My dog doesn't because I don't have one.
Does a dog manipulate its owner when it scratches at the door? Yes.
Do I manipulate the transmission of my car when i drive? Yes.
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You'd describe anything a two year old does as being "skillful?"
There's going to be some gray area here, but not all conditioned responses are going to be manipulation. Let me give a better example.
Pavlov's dog: Pavlov conditions the dog to salivate when ringing a bell. Is this manipulation on Pavlov's part? Does the dog drooling manipulative because it entices Pavlov to give the dog food because he can see it's hungry?
Babies and toddlers fall somewhere along the continuum after transmissions in terms of cognitive ability.
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No, but my youngest daughter has done it more times than I can count - typically for manipulative purposes. She also been telling flat-out lies since before the age of 3.
My brother-in-law had the same feelings.
In his case, it was due to him bringing my nephew to the hospital a million times due to health issues. More often than not, my BOL had to hold my nephew down while he was being administered shots or other painful/unpleasant things. Subconsciously, my nephew associated his dad with pain/bad times. My nephew was very mom-centric for a while and had only a passive interest in his dad. As his health improved and hospital visits essentially stopped, they grew closer.
Now, my nephew loves both of his parents equally.
I'd take it personally too and it would eat me inside as well... but hang in there as it *will* change.
In his case, it was due to him bringing my nephew to the hospital a million times due to health issues. More often than not, my BOL had to hold my nephew down while he was being administered shots or other painful/unpleasant things. Subconsciously, my nephew associated his dad with pain/bad times. My nephew was very mom-centric for a while and had only a passive interest in his dad. As his health improved and hospital visits essentially stopped, they grew closer.
Now, my nephew loves both of his parents equally.
I'd take it personally too and it would eat me inside as well... but hang in there as it *will* change.
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True story: I have a cat. My cat is very clever. I recently discovered it took a container or dried noodles into the shower while I was away at work. Clearly it understood that the dried noodles needed a water source to be properly consumed and recognized the shower as the place to access hot water and was just waiting for me to turn the knob.
I'm not saying you don't know your daughter, or that your daughter is not doing what you're saying, but we don't know what your daughter's emotional state was anytime she was crying. We don't know what the triggers were for her to begin crying. We don't know that it was manipulation. This is all being speculated.
Absolutely.
Anyone who doesn't, hasn't spent nearly enough time with two year olds.
Absolutely, yes.
If the dog begins drooling to get food WITHOUT the bell first ringing - it would be manipulative.
Take my last dog for example - if you were holding food, it would walk over and start doing tricks... with no encouragement or words from you. It was attempting to manipulate people into giving it food.
When a baby builds a stack of blocks, what is the baby doing to the blocks? Manipulating them.
Let me put it this way...
On more than one occasion, I have witnessed my youngest daughter deliberately self-trigger an emotion that induces screaming and tears running down her face after being in a calm and peaceful state just moments before.
Of course, I'm just a stupid parent. I don't know anything.
I can see that parenting is going to be really easy for you. You already have all the answers.
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I suppose it is all relative to what you're comparing them. Most have massive potential, but are still building potential rather than exercising it like adults do.
There'd never been a reward system for training the dog to do tricks?
Yes, but physical manipulation involves muscle control and depth perception. Psychological manipulation involves empathy, strategy, opportunity, and dramatic capabilities. They are not interchangeable in their ingredient list.
You're apparently more gifted at it than a lot of actors on the screen, because it frequently looks contrived when they do it.
and when (if) she got what she want I'm sure she instantly snapped back to the peaceful state quick enough to give you whiplash, but what do we know, we're obviously mistaken and just think our children are more advanced.
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I am absolutely not suggesting that you or anyone else in this thread is a stupid parent or that I have all the answers.Let me put it this way...
On more than one occasion, I have witnessed my youngest daughter deliberately self-trigger an emotion that induces screaming and tears running down her face after being in a calm and peaceful state just moments before.
Of course, I'm just a stupid parent. I don't know anything.
I can see that parenting is going to be really easy for you. You already have all the answers.
I am simply suggesting that our observations and our conclusions aren't always accurate understandings of what happens.
Empathy is a constantly evolving skill that's one of the aspects that sets humanity apart from other creatures. It's the ability to perceive the reactions others (may) have. You're empathizing with what triggers your daughter's tantrum, just like various posters in this thread are suggesting that their children can empathize what a parent's response will be to them performing some action. Ultimately, it's an advanced form of pattern recognition, with the addition of outside advice from other sources on your side, and nothing on the child's. But that's it. It's an estimation that a perceived pattern is accurate, and we as pattern perceivers are biased in our pattern recognition, just as the various two year olds are limited in their experience with both parents and patterns.
Yes, but irrelevant to whether it's manipulation.
I disagree.
Psychological manipulation only requires a very basic understanding of cause and effect.
In the past when I did X, Y happened - I'll try X again.
The trick involves not faking the tears - you need to do something that generates REAL tears. I find yanking a couple nose hairs is great for getting the look of a realistic cry.
