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I Can't Play Piano

Why doesn't Twofer "get" jazz?

  • Well, clearly, he's just not very bright.

    Votes: 20 16.5%
  • He has no taste in fine art. ZZ Top and Dogs Playing Poker is NOT fine art.

    Votes: 20 16.5%
  • He wasn't hugged by enough jazz musicians as a child.

    Votes: 24 19.8%
  • His mother told him "Jazz music is the devil" growing up. a.k.a. "Mommy Issues"

    Votes: 16 13.2%
  • He was too busy eating carrots in jazz band class.

    Votes: 41 33.9%

  • Total voters
    121
To be fair, most of us have not claimed to be jazz "haters".
I kind of think you did in your original post.
When somebody says they don't like something I like, my usual impulse is to dive in and say, "But this particular thing is really good, have you given that one a try yet?" I think it's a common thing to do -- when somebody *likes* a thing, they want to find other people who can get the same pleasure out of it that they did. And when I see that somebody doesn't like a thing, my first impulse is to assume they didn't try hard enough, or they didn't listen to the right things, or they're just misinformed somehow -- and that's usually wrong. We don't have to like everything, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate that the things we don't like were often made with the same care and intention as the things we do like.

Actively hating forms of art and music is kinda stupid. People tend not to do this, because we kinda intuit that there are better uses for our brains. The numbers of people who spend meaningful parts of their life hating things are smaller than it seems.

Talking about things we don't like is weird in one sense: It's easier to write about the ways something is bad than the ways it's good. But the opposite of love (of the arts, if not people) is usually indifference, not hate. If it's hard to write well about the things we like, it's even harder to explain why something doesn't matter at all, since the act of doing so seems to make it matter. Pretty much any adjective one can use will impart a value of some kind to the subject, and struggling to explain our indifference to things will come out sounding more aggro than intended, and that leads to more heated circular arguments.

So anyway. I'm all for evangelizing *for* things. People here tend to be fairly chill about the things they don't care about, setting aside Precision Bass-related topics. But there's enough disagreement to make people want to be proactive about defending their positions. I try to keep the following comic handy for the times it feels like somebody's trying to wind me up...
tumblr_mh6seapwLU1rqqme8o1_500.png
(source, I think)
 
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When somebody says they don't like something I like, my usual impulse is to dive in and say, "But this particular thing is really good, have you given that one a try yet?" I think it's a common thing to do -- when somebody *likes* a thing, they want to find other people who can get the same pleasure out of it that they did. And when I see that somebody doesn't like a thing, my first impulse is to assume they didn't try hard enough, or they didn't listen to the right things, or they're just misinformed somehow -- and that's usually wrong. We don't have to like everything, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate that the things we don't like were often made with the same care and intention as the things we do like.

Actively hating forms of art and music is kinda stupid. People tend not to do this, because we kinda intuit that there are better uses for our brains. The numbers of people who spend meaningful parts of their life hating things are smaller than it seems.

Talking about things we don't like is weird in one sense: It's easier to write about the ways something is bad than the ways it's good. But the opposite of love (of the arts, if not people) is usually indifference, not hate. If it's hard to write well about the things we like, it's even harder to explain why something doesn't matter at all, since the act of doing so seems to make it matter. Pretty much any adjective one can use will impart a value of some kind to the subject, and struggling to explain our indifference to things also it comes out sounding more aggro than it's intended, and that leads to more heated circular arguments.

So anyway. I'm all for evangelizing *for* things. People here tend to be fairly chill about the things they don't care about, setting aside Precision Bass-related topics. But there's enough disagreement to make people want to be proactive about defending their positions. I try to keep the following comic handy for the times it feels like somebody's trying to wind me up...
View attachment 4679431 (source, I think)

So that is not the part of Twofer's post I was replying to. They way you've quoted it isn't accurate to how I responded, and paints a very different picture of the discussion. I did not accuse him of "hating" jazz, I refuted his claim that no one had "disrespected players".
 
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Everything you cook tasted like literal dog poop, but I respect that you're one of the best chefs on the planet. I've seen a three year old put together a more convincing argument, but I respect that you're one of the most educated journalists on the planet.

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. You can't insult someone and then expect to cancel it out just by saying "I respect that ..." You could have just said, "It isn't for me", "it doesn't move me" or any other number of things. This isn't directed only at you, but this just isn't respectful discourse. What purpose does "...a contest to see who can squeeze in the most wrong notes and awful timing into one solo" have other than to insult the players? If you truly respected them, you could have just said, "I respect the players, and the talent and work they put into it, but it isn't something I enjoy." That is actually showing respect. Insulting someone and then saying you respect them isn't actually showing respect.

Your soccer and poetry examples are very different. You just effectively said, "I don't like it" and left it there, without any insults.

OK, fair enough. Then there's this. I'm a bit of a smart @$$. Perhaps you didn't know this about me. I ATTEMPT to be funny. Apparently my ATTEMPT at humor was lost on you because you are a huge jazz fan. Some things are funny to all EXCEPT the people who appreciate the subject matter of the joke.

So I will state what SHOULD go without saying. I did not LITERALLY mean that the musicians have contests to see who can squeeze in the most wrong notes. I didn't LITERALLY mean that they have poor timing. I know exactly what they are doing. THEY know exactly what they are doing. But, often, their art is fingernails on a chalkboard to me. AGAIN, Joe Sample makes me chill. SEEMINGLY random squonks on a tenor sax hurt my head. I don't have to like those kinds of solos. I don't even have to speak fondly of them to spare the feelings of all the world's tenor sax players. They'll be fine. I'm a nobody in the interwebz. Anyone who takes me too seriously pretty much takes EVERYTHING too seriously.

But I also can't stand any horror movies, Italian white sauces of any kind (I call them "snot"), or raw tomatoes (red boogers). I'm firm in what I do and don't like. (I'm always OPEN to try new things. Heck, I'll even give some things a second chance.) Things I don't like will be met with my snarky sense of humor. That likely won't change either. You can either take it personally, or roll your eyes and move on like most. :cool:
 
So that is not the part of Twofer's post I was replying to. They way you've quoted it isn't accurate to how I responded, and paints a very different picture of the discussion. I did not accuse him of "hating" jazz, I refuted his claim that no one had "disrespected players".

Nope. I made a joke. People who adore the thing being joked about took it seriously.

I have to agree with @Frank Tuesday.

The whole premise of the thread is to mock a genre, and who plays it, or likes it.

And the pile on that follows from 99% of the posters confirms that.


But, as in everything in life, what we say or do reflects more on us, than our "targets".

Nope. The purpose of the thread was to highlight a comedian who made an entire album and did a concert tour playing the piano when he doesn't play the piano. That lead me to recall the fat that I SOLD pianos for almost a decade when I can't play piano.

Any lengthy discussion of jazz (good or bad) was never the premise of the thread to begin with. A discussion of that comedian being able to turn an INABILITY to play piano into a money-making schtick, and my being able to sell the crap out of a product I didn't know how to use, were the original premises of the thread. While setting the table, I made a wise crack about certain forms of jazz that I DON'T GET. Leave to us to turn that into something it wasn't. :D
 
OK, fair enough. Then there's this. I'm a bit of a smart @$$. Perhaps you didn't know this about me. I ATTEMPT to be funny. Apparently my ATTEMPT at humor was lost on you because you are a huge jazz fan. Some things are funny to all EXCEPT the people who appreciate the subject matter of the joke.

So I will state what SHOULD go without saying. I did not LITERALLY mean that the musicians have contests to see who can squeeze in the most wrong notes. I didn't LITERALLY mean that they have poor timing. I know exactly what they are doing. THEY know exactly what they are doing. But, often, their art is fingernails on a chalkboard to me. AGAIN, Joe Sample makes me chill. SEEMINGLY random squonks on a tenor sax hurt my head. I don't have to like those kinds of solos. I don't even have to speak fondly of them to spare the feelings of all the world's tenor sax players. They'll be fine. I'm a nobody in the interwebz. Anyone who takes me too seriously pretty much takes EVERYTHING too seriously.

But I also can't stand any horror movies, Italian white sauces of any kind (I call them "snot"), or raw tomatoes (red boogers). I'm firm in what I do and don't like. (I'm always OPEN to try new things. Heck, I'll even give some things a second chance.) Things I don't like will be met with my snarky sense of humor. That likely won't change either. You can either take it personally, or roll your eyes and move on like most. :cool:

I get that it hurts the ego when you called out on something, and you seem to still be processing that. Denial, "you misunderstood me", "you can't take a joke" shift blame, etc. You'll get there buddy.
 
The thing I don't get is that you said "I don't get jazz, it's just a bunch of twiddly stuff, etc." and then when I present example after example after example of melodic jazz recordings that should be right up your alley, you fade.

You've basically decided that all of "jazz" is the stuff you don't like, and therefore you can join in with the choruses of how jazz is "weird", "inaccessible", etc., etc., etc., all the same old stuff that SOME rock and rollers say.

If you want to say "I don't get free jazz" or "I don't get late Coltrane with the ten minute solos" because it departs too far from melodies, harmonies, etc., that's a statement that we can discuss. But you're basically saying "I hate Americans" because three of them were mean to you once.
 
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I get that it hurts the ego when you called out on something, and you seem to still be processing that. Denial, "you misunderstood me", "you can't take a joke" shift blame, etc. You'll get there buddy.

Still no.

Here's the short version.

You DO get to decide whether or not a joke hurts your feelings. You do NOT get to decide what the original intent was of the person making the joke. It's really that simple.

You're welcome...... "buddy".
 
When somebody says they don't like something I like, my usual impulse is to dive in and say, "But this particular thing is really good, have you given that one a try yet?" I think it's a common thing to do -- when somebody *likes* a thing, they want to find other people who can get the same pleasure out of it that they did. And when I see that somebody doesn't like a thing, my first impulse is to assume they didn't try hard enough, or they didn't listen to the right things, or they're just misinformed somehow -- and that's usually wrong. We don't have to like everything, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate that the things we don't like were often made with the same care and intention as the things we do like.

Actively hating forms of art and music is kinda stupid. People tend not to do this, because we kinda intuit that there are better uses for our brains. The numbers of people who spend meaningful parts of their life hating things are smaller than it seems.

Talking about things we don't like is weird in one sense: It's easier to write about the ways something is bad than the ways it's good. But the opposite of love (of the arts, if not people) is usually indifference, not hate. If it's hard to write well about the things we like, it's even harder to explain why something doesn't matter at all, since the act of doing so seems to make it matter. Pretty much any adjective one can use will impart a value of some kind to the subject, and struggling to explain our indifference to things will come out sounding more aggro than intended, and that leads to more heated circular arguments.

So anyway. I'm all for evangelizing *for* things. People here tend to be fairly chill about the things they don't care about, setting aside Precision Bass-related topics. But there's enough disagreement to make people want to be proactive about defending their positions. I try to keep the following comic handy for the times it feels like somebody's trying to wind me up...
View attachment 4679431 (source, I think)

That's a good comic.
 
OK, fair enough. Then there's this. I'm a bit of a smart @$$. Perhaps you didn't know this about me. I ATTEMPT to be funny. Apparently my ATTEMPT at humor was lost on you because you are a huge jazz fan. Some things are funny to all EXCEPT the people who appreciate the subject matter of the joke.

So I will state what SHOULD go without saying. I did not LITERALLY mean that the musicians have contests to see who can squeeze in the most wrong notes. I didn't LITERALLY mean that they have poor timing. I know exactly what they are doing. THEY know exactly what they are doing. But, often, their art is fingernails on a chalkboard to me. AGAIN, Joe Sample makes me chill. SEEMINGLY random squonks on a tenor sax hurt my head. I don't have to like those kinds of solos. I don't even have to speak fondly of them to spare the feelings of all the world's tenor sax players. They'll be fine. I'm a nobody in the interwebz. Anyone who takes me too seriously pretty much takes EVERYTHING too seriously.

But I also can't stand any horror movies, Italian white sauces of any kind (I call them "snot"), or raw tomatoes (red boogers). I'm firm in what I do and don't like. (I'm always OPEN to try new things. Heck, I'll even give some things a second chance.) Things I don't like will be met with my snarky sense of humor. That likely won't change either. You can either take it personally, or roll your eyes and move on like most. :cool:

Why the opposition to horror movies? As a lifelong fan, I'm curious. I can't stand westerns or musicals, so I definitely get not liking an entire genre of something.
 
My first Jazz album was Light as a Feather, Chick Corea. It took me over a year of listening before getting into it then I was hooked.
Great album!


My first jazz album was Monk's Music. I loved those sour chords he plays on the head of "Well You Needn't"! I was coming from classical piano, those chords sounded new and fresh to my ears, and I loved it.

But my entry to Jazz was really Jaco Pastorius.
I must have listened to "Live in Italy" hundreds of times. From there I discovered Weather Report and Biréli Lagrène. Then, Metheny (Bright Size Life, of course), Clarke's School Days, Miller's Tales, etc..

Then, through the liner notes of Jacob's debut album, I found out Herbie Hancock, the Brecker Brothers, etc.. I continued my journey through Fusion for many years, before I dived into Be-Bop, Hard-Bop, etc..


These were the albums that opened my eyes to this wonderful music:

IMG_20220505_001526.jpg
 
26416230[/URL], member: 52936"]I don't know what butt rock is.

Originally it was a label for post grunge bands like Nickelback with perceived lack of talent but high commercial success, but IME these days it's often applied to hair metal bands and/or glam bands and the like going all the way back to at least the mid eighties too. Style over substance is the gist of it, I reckon. Or maybe just "music I don't like." ;)
 
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