I don't like monster subs all that much.

[Bassngtr]

Wow she's great! Love the guitar tone esp. when she strums a crunchy chord or two. Thanks for sharing.

I LOVE low end. I am the anti-Jaco tone-wise - I want to be heard clearly but I must have the deep stuff.
I want deep powerful low end, preferably that I can physically feel while I'm playing. Given that, I can't accept that the OP (and I) are the problem. I agree with the premise that more modern music emphasizes the (sub) bass. Fine. But mud is mud. The last 4 concerts I went to were classic bands, and I could tell the bassist was playing (saw the fingers moving) but could not discern a single note from any band. That's 4 different sound setups, all the same. Mud. So it's definitely a thing, but IMHO (knowing I am not the demographic anymore) it's not a good thing.

 

[bulldean]

I've got to ask..... what is the anti Jaco tone?

 

[Father Gino]

I don’t think you can blame the subs, the overwhelming low end on live music seems to be a preference. It started decades ago and continues to get worse to my old sensibilities. I could never comprehend how people could play an active bass with the tone controls maxed either. Might sound good at very low volumes, but turned up…

I played in a small club that had a huge house PA run by the owner. I asked him to turn down the low end on stage because I (and the keyboard player) couldn’t hear the pitch of the lowest notes. He said he could not because it would sound like crap in the room. The owner is a bass player and he said he couldn’t hear his bass when he played on his own stage either.

 

[logdrum]

Bob Marley would be 77 now. Reggae bass is not exactly light on bass and whenever I go to any of the Marley progeny shows (Damian, Stephen et al ), I am prepared for the low end onslaught even in small venues. BUt I agree that on this particular artist, the sub-bass should be pulled back - or possibly you are just not used how much bass they push nowadays and have been for a while.

Even in classical where they mic the orchestra, The bass is larger, but usually the FOH are very delicate

 

[LowActionHero]

AFAIK, that's pretty much how contemporary pop music sounds. The problem is most likely not the subs, it is the artistic choice in how they are used.

Another way to think about it, is it's your problem. If the music is targeted towards young'uns, most of them probably love exactly the quality you hate about the mix. So in essence, you have become this guy:
View attachment 4850393

Yeah, not the subs fault, they can always be turned down. Maybe not even the sound guys fault - it IS the trend now. And like Twof said, it takes away from the music to me. It's not balanced, and that should be the goal of any sound guy. (IMO)

There's a chance it was your location in the audience, maybe it sounded better at the board, but I doubt it.

 

[Sue Haseltine]

I saw ZZ Top years ago at the Cow Palace in San Francisco and Dusty’s bass was so loud it felt like you were being assaulted! We had to move to the back of the stadium…then it sounded great. Had the pleasure of seeing them live many times in other venues without that issue, but I’d say it was the loudest concert I have ever been to…and I’m a long time rocker!

 

[ardgedee]

AFAIK, that's pretty much how contemporary pop music sounds. The problem is most likely not the subs, it is the artistic choice in how they are used.

Another way to think about it, is it's your problem. If the music is targeted towards young'uns, most of them probably love exactly the quality you hate about the mix. So in essence, you have become this guy:
View attachment 4850393

Last spring I saw a three-act bill at an outdoor concert. The first was Indigo De Souza, a young singer-songwriter-guitarist with bassist and drummer. The subs were mixed way forwards so the kick pretty much drowned everything out, I was kinda despairing the rest of the show would be like this. The second performer was Yo La Tengo* (another three-piece guitar-bass-drums lineup), and their mix was just about perfect. I could hear everybody equally well without trying -- all three of them take turns singing, so that was a bonus. The headliner was Sylvan Esso, a duo with a singer and a guy behind a table full of electronics, danceable electronic pop that you'd figure would be the most bass-heavy of them all, but they weren't; their mix was also well balanced.

So yeah, as long as the equipment is capable, it really is on the artist (or their manager, or their engineer) to use them properly.

*(I was there mostly for Yo La Tengo 'cause I'm old, but fwiw the whole evening was pretty good.)

 

[CryingBass]

Just what we all need. Loud Mud!

Hey, there is a band out there somewhere that can use that name! ( multiple )

 

[mrjim123]

I'm with you bro. I can't stand sound guys who have no idea what a bass truly sounds like. That is one reason I recently added a Broughton HPF to my signal chain. Having said that, I've had nothing but great sound men covering my current band.

 

[darwin-bass]

Subs & "modern low end" are a thing with me because I believe they short change the music. The low end becomes all about the kick drum and the bass guitar becomes unnecessary. Can't hear it, can't feel it, might as well not be there. So you've taken an instrument off the table (short changed the music) just so you can rattle the audience's guts.

And it seems to be everywhere.

I saw a Christmas show with Natalie Grant and Danny Gokey. Strong kick with bass was so buried in the mix you could not tell when the bassist switched from eb to upright. He looked good but as far as I could tell he wasn't even in the mix.

When I run sound at my church I get thank you comments from the congregation specifically because they can hear the bass guitar. I had another sound guy from another church visit and he commented about the good sounding "folk" mix we have (bass, piano, e-gtr, a-gtr, drums, 2-3 vocs) which I think means the kick was in the mix not waaaaay on top of it.

 

[hrodbert696]

Agree. I went to see a friend's cover band at a medium-sized local venue a few years back, and this place had, if I remember the count right, EIGHT big subwoofers lined up under the stage. Not all that big of a place. The sound was pure mud. Couldn't make out a note. I like a good, meaty, thumping bass tone, but I should be able to hear the notes, not to mention the rest of the band.

 

[darwin-bass]

And just so I'm not some old man yelling at clouds, I think I get it.

When I got my first stereo in the 70's I engaged the loudness button (bass & treble boost) and turned up the bass and treble. The mids were gone. I thought it sounded great. A while after that an older guy suggested I learn to listen with the controls all at neutral. It took me a few years but eventually I appreciated the mids, discovering there was lots of music happening there.

As my ability to truly listen deeply grew, my desire for overpowering bass & treble faded in favor of balance. I believe this is the #1 reason so many consider me good on sound. I listen deeply and hear things others don't.

I believe most listeners are stuck at stage 1. Music plays, they sing and dance and have fun but they really aren't listening. As long as there are vocals, lots of bass and lots of treble they're happy.

Or maybe I am just an old man yelling at clouds.

 

[Afc70]

 

[HeadWind]

This is definitely a problem. I went to a local multi-national-level-act music festival. It was not a "modern music" festival. More indy and jam type. I am sure the stage and the sound were subbed out to some national pro festival-equipment company, though. For one act, I went right to the front of the stage. It was just a singer (with acoustic guitar), bass, electric (mostly rhythm) and drums setup. Act was almost unlistenable because of the subs placed just on the other side of the front crowd fence. I suppose they were mixing it for people in the back to hear the bass, but it is crazy that people in the front couldn't actually hear the music because of the subs. And it wasn't that I was just getting a good listen to the bassist. It was just booms.

I go to this festival every year, and have been up front before for other acts and it was not like that in earlier years.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Times change don’t they?
Used to be regardless of the genre the FOH targeted an accurate reproduction of Bonham’s bass drum. Didn’t work universally. Makes a mush of Huey Lewis and the News. The thing is the tech would prioritize that and the rest of the mix was an after thought. Not bashing engineers here. Seemed to be a taste thing. You knew it wasn’t ideal. You had the album. You’d heard the group in a small venue.
Oh well.

Some seem to view it as a signifier of competence...just how much they can make the bass drum sound like an M110 howitzer...even with an acoustic jazz trio.

 

[fdeck]

Where I dislike too much low end is when the instruments are not electric and the PA mix overhypes the low end rather than reproduce how the instruments actually sound. I was at a bluegrass concert this past summer where the upright bass was mixed as if they were playing reggae. Not only too deep, but too loud, not properly balanced.

Sound man rule #1: listen to the band with the PA off. Now make that same sound but louder.

I played at a festival once, brought a tiny amp for stage sound, but was DI'd into the PA system. The subs were sitting on the flimsy stage with the mains on poles above them. My upright was feeding back terribly. The sound guy was yelling at me to turn down my amp. Amidst the feedback, I unplugged my amp and held the power cord up in the air. Point made.

 

[Topkat13]

Ok.

 

[Wasnex]

And just so I'm not some old man yelling at clouds, I think I get it.

When I got my first stereo in the 70's I engaged the loudness button (bass & treble boost) and turned up the bass and treble. The mids were gone. I thought it sounded great. A while after that an older guy suggested I learn to listen with the controls all at neutral. It took me a few years but eventually I appreciated the mids, discovering there was lots of music happening there.

As my ability to truly listen deeply grew, my desire for overpowering bass & treble faded in favor of balance. I believe this is the #1 reason so many consider me good on sound. I listen deeply and hear things others don't.

I believe most listeners are stuck at stage 1. Music plays, they sing and dance and have fun but they really aren't listening. As long as there are vocals, lots of bass and lots of treble they're happy.

Or maybe I am just an old man yelling at clouds.

I think this is pretty accurate for a broad section of the population.

I am situational in my taste for bass. Overall I tend to like a balanced sound and listen to my stereo with the bass and treble at or near 0 most of the time (as you describe).

But super heavy bass is intrinsic to some styles. Some songs even sound good with massive, muddy lows.

To be honest I rarely hear any songs on the contemporary channels that I like, and if I do they are somewhat retro. But occasionally I will hear a song with super heavy bass that I really enjoy. Sometimes the bass is tight and defined and sometimes it's even muddy. When it's muddy, the clarity of the bass line is not really all that important of an element.

I think the hyped low end in lot's of contemporary songs sounds out of place as well, but I think that's largely because my experience has not prepared me to want it. I believe there is a certain evolution of experience to transports your expectation about music from one place to another. In order to appreciate certain things, you have to go through this evolution, or it won't make sense.

IMHO Blues does not sound good or authentic with super-hyped muddy bass.

 

[gstaats]

Hpf filters (pedals, or on board like many of the newer mesa amps) can do wonders taming foh mud.

 

[CryingBass]

I think the world needs more 360/361's. Not much mud at all, loud, projection for miles.

I was lucky to own one. I believe lot's of FOH systems are trying to duplicate those results.

EDIT: I also used a Fender Bassman 100 back in the stone age. Mud was inevitable, but not as loud, and kinda got folks thinking that "farting" bass was a good thing. IMHO