I Don't Remember Getting Gigs Being This Tough

[txbasschik]

people basically just have to accept that there is much, much less demand for live music in bars and clubs than there used to be, the market is going to be smaller and more competitive and there's nothing you can do about it. the business model has changed, so you need to change too. original bands need to focus on ALL AGES VENUES, colleges, digital downloads, selling merch, playing label showcases, and networking if you ever want to get anywhere. i have friends who are playing NME and CMJ showcases and drawing a ton of people who still don't get much of a guarantee for most gigs. that's the way it is.

interest in cover bands is going to continue to decline as boomers get older. it's that simple. it's not just that DJs and karaoke and theme nights are cheaper for bars, it's that there is more demand for those things among younger people, especially in big cities, because it's what they've grown up with. there's still a market among certain demographics and in certain regions but it is going to keep shrinking. i'm sure this will elicit a bunch of "yeah, well, go **** yourself junior, my cover band gigs every weekend and we still get paid!" type responses. good for you. enjoy it while you can.

In our area, the boomers show up to gigs. The 20-somethings show up to gigs. In droves, both groups!

But the 30-somethings? Nope. You can't get them out of their homes with high explosives. I don't know what's wrong with them.

Creepy. But, I tell ya, that whole demographic is missing from the bars. Show after show...there's this big gap between 25 and 40, in the audience.

Cherie

 

[scottbass]

In our area, the boomers show up to gigs. The 20-somethings show up to gigs. In droves, both groups!

But the 30-somethings? Nope. You can't get them out of their homes with high explosives. I don't know what's wrong with them.

Creepy. But, I tell ya, that whole demographic is missing from the bars. Show after show...there's this big gap between 25 and 40, in the audience.

Cherie

Not surprising at all. I quit playing in bands and didn't go out very often when we had young 'uns at home. It's hard to justify sitter & bar tab every week when you've got one, two or more in diapers, scouts, Little League, high school sports, etc. We were mostly MIA from the club scene between the ages of 28 and 45.

 

[txbasschik]

if you're getting paid $150 per gig, i would start being quiet....

most venues here refuse guarentees and only pay you by people you bring. As the CEO of a venue, i agree with this. it takes initiative for a band to get enough people there (building their fanbase big enough) to get what they want to get paid.


I actuallly had a show last night. $7 cover. 7 bands. the highest paid band was $39. two bands got paid $3.00.

consider yourself lucky if
a) you are getting gigs with guarentees
and B) guarentees of $150.


Sorry to be the downcast one, but its legit truth.

I played a place like yours. I played there twice. The first time, I got $7. The second time, I got $4. Oh, and two free beers. They acted like they were doing me a favor, giving me two cheapo, $2 beers. :scowl:

I never played there again. It was a lot of work and hassle for each band, and none of the musicians made any money. The club made money. They made money because there were four good bands booked in that club, and that is why people came there.

The place was packed, both times. Our crowd even drove down from 30 miles away, to help us and the other bands have a good night. Twice! They came for us, *and* the other bands, both times.

We advertised, put up our own flyers, did online promotion, e-mailed and phoned God, everyone else, and their dog, to work up a crowd and give a good show. We made sure our music (cover and original) was *tight*. The crowd loved us, the bartenders and sound guy loved us. We had the place rocking! We had done everything right, and worked our asses off.

And yet, the club paid us less than they pay the guy who sweeps up. We each got paid less than he makes in an *hour*. That is why I never played there again. They wanted us back...yeah, I'll bet! But they wouldn't give us even the most reasonable of guarantees...not even $150 w/o comps.

They wanted us to make money for them, while paying us less than a bum on the street gets from begging. Which is exactly how you are paying your musicians. You should hang your head in shame.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

Not surprising at all. I quit playing in bands and didn't go out very often when we had young 'uns at home. It's hard to justify sitter & bar tab every week when you've got one, two or more in diapers, scouts, Little League, high school sports, etc. We were mostly MIA from the club scene between the ages of 28 and 45.

Hey, I understand, I do. My youngest daughter is ten. My eldest is 19. I went back to playing out when my daughter was four. I had to go to football games and wrestling matches and track meets, then go play a gig. With my youngest coming into middle school this fall, there will be art shows and choir concerts and volleyball games.

Hubby and I treat our gigs and jam nights as dates, and we often can't even use that, either because we are playing different places on the same night, or because one of us is home with kiddos.

But it wouldn't kill them to get a sitter once every month or two and go out, would it? It didn't kill us, and our kids are fine.

I often get a vibe off these younger moms...as if I'm somehow a bad parent for doing what I do, or for suggesting that they go out and have a beer and see our band every once in a while. Just...the things they say, the way they treat me once they know what I am...

Its just plain creepy.

Cherie

 

[Billminpa]

I am in an Oldies Band and we are booked throughout the summer and well into the fall. We are 8 pieces including two girl back-up vocals and we average well over $1000 per gig. In fact on July 4th we are playing a Festival and getting $3500 including travel expenses and also accomodation.
We have basically stopped playing bar gigs because they just don't pay. Occaisionally we do one at a bar that helped us build some momentum but we are stopping that because it is only $600. But they do give us free food.
These bar owners think that the band should pay for itself by increasing business. The problem is that people are just not going to clubs as often or drinking as much for all the reasons noted in another post. Looking at it from the owners point of view, having a band for a night is an added expense. If he has the same crowd spending the same amount of money, it has now cost him more to do business that day.
My advice, get out of the bar scene as quickly as you can. You can't fight the economics. Bands are an expense not a profit center in most cases.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Aint read everything, but saw people moanin about pay...

People have gotter to stop moanin' about not being paid, or the pay is bad... Really winds me up this.

I'd PAY to play if i had to, I LOVE music with a PASSION.

Richland123, you don't have a clue what your on about... We normally take the door, We get up to and over £500 each then...

If we had a set fee... be like £150 and a few beers between us all... Sounds like to me, you don't have much of a following, if any!

If your bands good, people will come. No matter of the venue!

It's not just upto the promoter to pack a venue out if your bands new to his town/venue. Get on the local radio stations... Put the venue's post code in myspace... add everyone within 5 miles of it... advertise your self!

I could go on and on... everyone stop being so soft and play because you want to... if not... millions of other young bands are willing to take your place.

I've said it before and I'll say it again here: musicians are their own worst enemies.

Take this guy, for example. By his own admission, his time and effort is worth $0. He is willing to let others profit from his effort, because he has some misguided notion of "passion." And he rationalizes through all of this and come out with a self-righteous superiority complex that is difficult to comprehend.

This strikes me as the ranting of someone with minimal life experience and NO common sense. Time can fix that....

 

[Greyvagabond]

I've said it before and I'll say it again here: musicians are their own worst enemies.

Take this guy, for example. By his own admission, his time and effort is worth $0. He is willing to let others profit from his effort, because he has some misguided notion of "passion." And he rationalizes through all of this and come out with a self-righteous superiority complex that is difficult to comprehend.

This strikes me as the ranting of someone with minimal life experience and NO common sense. Time can fix that....

When Radiohead or The Smiths or Nirvana or Weezer started playing gigs, I guarantee you they didn't worry about getting their cut from the door, or whine about low paying gigs. They went out and played awesome music. Making money was completely off their radar screen. Don't blame a lack of paying gigs on original musicians, because usually we aren't competing in the same market. Now, if highly talented 7 piece funk bands start playing weddings for free, that might be a problem

 

[guy n. cognito]

When Radiohead or The Smiths or Nirvana or Weezer started playing gigs, I guarantee you they didn't worry about getting their cut from the door, or whine about low paying gigs. They went out and played awesome music. Making money was completely off their radar screen. Don't blame a lack of paying gigs on original musicians, because usually we aren't competing in the same market. Now, if highly talented 7 piece funk bands start playing weddings for free, that might be a problem

This is where the younger guys have no insight.....

I guarantee you they did. Can you prove either point? Let's not talk theoritically, unless you can call Bono and ask him.....

Bands like Radiohead, The Smiths, Nirvana and Weezer are the EXCEPTION to the rule. Who cares what they did when they were starting out? 99.99999% of original bands will never be this successful. They will spend their careers playing bars, small venues and college events. They will be worrying about the "door" for the rest of their lives. So, when these guys are willing to pay to play, they are only hurting themselves. Venue owners love free entertainment, and they really don't care who's on stage as long as they put butts in the seats. When a band who's been willing to play for free suddenly demands money, the owner just calls the next U2 wannabes. They'd better be willing to play for free, because there's 10 other bands behind them willing to do it.

To be a successful musician, you have to be both talented and business-smart. You can't sit back on your haunches and hope that you're the next Adam Clayton. The odds are completely against you. Instead, you need to plan for something a bit more realistic and start attributing some value to you services TODAY. You'll probably be playing that same club 10 years from now, and you'll be negotiating from a base of $0.

Wanna play music for a living? Great, that's your business. Start treating it as such.

 

[Greyvagabond]

This is where the younger guys have no insight.....

I guarantee you they did. Can you prove either point? Let's not talk theoritically, unless you can call Bono and ask him.....

Bands like Radiohead, The Smiths, Nirvana and Weezer are the EXCEPTION to the rule. Who cares what they did when they were starting out? 99.99999% of original bands will never be this successful. They will spend their careers playing bars, small venues and college events. They will be worrying about the "door" for the rest of their lives. So, when these guys are willing to pay to play, they are only hurting themselves. Venue owners love free entertainment, and they really don't care who's on stage as long as they put butts in the seats. When a band who's been willing to play for free suddenly demands money, the owner just calls the next U2 wannabes. They'd better be willing to play for free, because there's 10 other bands behind them willing to do it.

To be a successful musician, you have to be both talented and business-smart. You can't sit back on your haunches and hope that you're the next Adam Clayton. The odds are completely against you. Instead, you need to plan for something a bit more realistic and start attributing some value to you services TODAY. You'll probably be playing that same club 10 years from now, and you'll be negotiating from a base of $0.

Wanna play music for a living? Great, that's your business. Start treating it as such.

I can deifnately appreciate the fact that you need to be business savy to survive (just to break even with an original band is a feat!) But, generally, the best way to do it isn't to complain about OTHER bands playing for free. We make much more money off of selling merch and CDs than we could realistically think of making in most clubs (University gigs excluded; those are money!) For most original bands, the players AREN'T trying to make a living from music. Most take the approach of "we'll take this as far as we can while still having day jobs; if it looks like we can quit them, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it." At that point, the band is hardly ever negotiating its own payment; the manager is doing that. Hell, we don't even negotiate our own pay!

If there were a semi-organized, union-esque movement amongst bands to demand better pay, you can bet your ass there will be more DJs and juke boxes in your town!

Also, how do you know I don't have Bono's number on speed-dial

 

[guy n. cognito]

I can deifnately appreciate the fact that you need to be business savy to survive (just to break even with an original band is a feat!) But, generally, the best way to do it isn't to complain about OTHER bands playing for free. We make much more money off of selling merch and CDs than we could realistically think of making in most clubs (University gigs excluded; those are money!) For most original bands, the players AREN'T trying to make a living from music. Most take the approach of "we'll take this as far as we can while still having day jobs; if it looks like we can quit them, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it." At that point, the band is hardly ever negotiating its own payment; the manager is doing that. Hell, we don't even negotiate our own pay!

If there were a semi-organized, union-esque movement amongst bands to demand better pay, you can bet your ass there will be more DJs and juke boxes in your town!

Also, how do you know I don't have Bono's number on speed-dial

Because I asked him and he's never heard of you.....

Major disagreement here: I'd argue that MOST original bands are trying to make a living from music. Desire and ability are two different things. The reality is that most of them can't, because they are expected to play for free. This expectation has been set by the other original bands in the area that are willing to play for free for "exposure" or "merch sales." It's driven by the desperation to be rich and famous.....and to live off your music.

I'm not just complaining. I'm trying to convince other musicians that their craft has worth and that they should be charging for their services, rather than allowing shady venue owners to profit alone.

 

[Eamq]

There seems to be a lot of different perspectives on this, and all of them are valid. Every area has a different set of circumstances that contribute to radically different experiences.

For instance: I live in Austin, TX, one of the most over-saturated cities for live music on the face of the planet. Everybody here is either in a band, or knows at least one person who plays in a band.

We can usually get at least one show a month. Much more if we're willing to drive for a couple hours. However, try getting people to come to your shows in another town when they won't even come to one that's 10 minutes away! This is a hard area to be a musician.

In terms of pay, I've seen money... twice. Maybe. I've been gigging for 6 years. We have a band fund which pays for flyers and CD production, so I'm okay if our pay goes to that. At least we don't pay to play (with one notable exception - never again).

I don't think I'm ruining the game for anyone. I'd love to get paid enough to make this a full time operation, but we'd play ZERO shows if we walked into venues in this city asking for even $150.

So... I can play for free in a bar, or I can play for free at home or rehearsal.

Which sounds like more fun?

 

[Hutch1]

However, try getting people to come to your shows in another town when they won't even come to one that's 10 minutes away!

Boy do I feel your pain. After asking friends again and again and again to come to our shows, I can only conclude that I have no friends. I think non-musicians simply can't comprehend how much their support means to a band. It can really make or break an evening. We've played within walking distance of friends, and the rule is none of them shows up.

(The theme from M*A*S*H goes through my head.)

 

[Drunk Heffalump]

if you're getting paid $150 per gig, i would start being quiet....

most venues here refuse guarentees and only pay you by people you bring. As the CEO of a venue, i agree with this. it takes initiative for a band to get enough people there (building their fanbase big enough) to get what they want to get paid.


I actuallly had a show last night. $7 cover. 7 bands. the highest paid band was $39. two bands got paid $3.00.

consider yourself lucky if
a) you are getting gigs with guarentees
and B) guarentees of $150.


Sorry to be the downcast one, but its legit truth.

Typical, so I must ask just how often I'm expected to drag everyone I know out 2-3 times a month to make you rich?
If my buddies can make every gig how long do you think it takes to eventually bore them to tears? 5 shows, 10 maybe? Then you've got people standing around with folded arms waiting for the right moment to clap. That sure as hell inspires the people we don't know to get involved.
Build a fan base, oh that's easy, hell I'm falling over fans right this very second, makes it damn hard to type dontchaknow? No, wait, that's the pipe dream, realities over here.....
Listen, until you understand that we need to work together, that's our fans, such as they are, and your barflies, there's going to be a high turnover of owners/ management at your level and people just giving up at ours, till one day you find youself saying 'Why can't I get a decent band to play my club at a reasonable price?'
Then what?
Wow I managed to keep it rational, civil even, hotdamn

 

[Eamq]

Boy do I feel your pain. After asking friends again and again and again to come to our shows, I can only conclude that I have no friends. I think non-musicians simply can't comprehend how much their support means to a band. It can really make or break an evening. We've played within walking distance of friends, and the rule is none of them shows up.

(The theme from M*A*S*H goes through my head.)

Good call, brother! The worst part is when people are downtown anyways, and they're maybe 3 blocks away at another bar. Still won't come.

I'm trying to look at it like "paying my dues" rather than "no one freakin' cares."

I'm passive aggressive, though. When those people Myspace me about a party, I tell them I'll be there, and then don't go.

That'll show 'em!

 

[Hutch1]

Good call, brother! The worst part is when people are downtown anyways, and they're maybe 3 blocks away at another bar. Still won't come.

I'm trying to look at it like "paying my dues" rather than "no one freakin' cares."

I'm passive aggressive, though. When those people Myspace me about a party, I tell them I'll be there, and then don't go.

That'll show 'em!

Really. Take that! It got to the point where we wouldn't even mention it anymore because we knew they'd find ways to be busy that evening.

 

[modulusman]

I played a place like yours. I played there twice. The first time, I got $7. The second time, I got $4. Oh, and two free beers. They acted like they were doing me a favor, giving me two cheapo, $2 beers. :scowl:

I never played there again. It was a lot of work and hassle for each band, and none of the musicians made any money. The club made money. They made money because there were four good bands booked in that club, and that is why people came there.

The place was packed, both times. Our crowd even drove down from 30 miles away, to help us and the other bands have a good night. Twice! They came for us, *and* the other bands, both times.

We advertised, put up our own flyers, did online promotion, e-mailed and phoned God, everyone else, and their dog, to work up a crowd and give a good show. We made sure our music (cover and original) was *tight*. The crowd loved us, the bartenders and sound guy loved us. We had the place rocking! We had done everything right, and worked our asses off.

And yet, the club paid us less than they pay the guy who sweeps up. We each got paid less than he makes in an *hour*. That is why I never played there again. They wanted us back...yeah, I'll bet! But they wouldn't give us even the most reasonable of guarantees...not even $150 w/o comps.

They wanted us to make money for them, while paying us less than a bum on the street gets from begging. Which is exactly how you are paying your musicians. You should hang your head in shame.

Cherie

So you got screwed the first time and you went back for seconds.

 

[Steve]

If any of you who think i'm wrong... and your in a covers band... just go away... wright some of your own tunes and stop makin money off someone else...

Hmmm...

I always thought it was a bar owner that should develop and serve his clientel and stop making money off someone else.

It always cracks me up when some indy act breaks their butt for free and the rationalizes it because (insert mega band name) started that way.

You wanna come roof my house for me? I'll pay you in lottery tickets...

 

[Korladis]

Hmmm...

I always thought it was a bar owner that should develop and serve his clientel and stop making money off someone else.

It always cracks me up when some indy act breaks their butt for free and the rationalizes it because (insert mega band name) started that way.

You wanna come roof my house for me? I'll pay you in lottery tickets...

Lol.

I hate this snobbery that seems to spring up between covers bands and originals bands. Both are perfectly valid groups to play bass in.

I'm in an original band, but we don't look down on bands that play primarily covers, like Danfold appears to.

 

[MNAirHead]

Much of this has to do with the lower bar for talent...

Cable TV has made everyone believe they can "flip" a bar and become an overnight rock star.

We've all forgotten how much hardwork it was 20 years back.. and how much better we were expected to be...

 

[aborgman]

In our area, the boomers show up to gigs. The 20-somethings show up to gigs. In droves, both groups!

But the 30-somethings? Nope. You can't get them out of their homes with high explosives. I don't know what's wrong with them.

Creepy. But, I tell ya, that whole demographic is missing from the bars. Show after show...there's this big gap between 25 and 40, in the audience.

Cherie

20-something average child age: no kids

30-something average child age: 1-2 kids, <10 yo.

40-something average child age: old enough to watch themselves.

--
aborgman