Double Bass I gotta burr under my saddle.

[Scottgun]

We aren't in show business are we?

Absolutely we are. As one guitarist put it (George Lynch?), "If it was only about the music, we'd all have our guitars up to our boobies." To that I would add that musicians would sit in tight circle on stage facing each other for eye-contact oblivious to the audience.

There is always an element of showmanship in musical performance. Granted, there is a spectrum with high spectacle on one end (metal concerts with pyrotechnics) and little spectacle (jazz concerts) on the other, but nothing that really counts as zero spectacle. Even a jazz gigger is expected to look the part. Sonny Rollins isn't going to come out in studded leather bracers a la Bruce Dickinson, but he is going to make choices that, however much he is minimalizing the look, acknowledge the standard to look the part.

I don't think one can really dichotomize listening and seeing. They form a set along with the other senses--the smell of a smokey bar, the taste of the libations, etc. all are part of the musical experience even if they form only a small part. Listening to Jaco is great. Seeing Jaco's facial expressions as he plays is even better. This is why I have little sympathy when people cry "no feeling!" whenever they hear something fast and technically complicated. I've been to two Van Halen concerts and whatever you think of that band, what couldn't be denied is that when I saw Eddie play and saw the unrestrained joy on his face I knew I was watching and listening to a guy who would play for nickles--and thus it sounded better.

Now if one wants to argue that a particular gig had too much spectacle to cover up for the bad playing, have at it. I seem to recall Blackie Lawless commenting to his band after being burned after a pyrotechnic accident that "gee, if we played better, maybe this wouldn't have happened."

As far as the expression "I saw x band". That's all it is. An expression. And one that makes sense. If someone said to me, "I heard Bella Fleck a few weeks ago." I'd be inclined to ask, "Yeah, which album?" at which point he'd say, "No, I mean I went to his concert." If he just said, "I saw Bella Fleck." I'd know immediately that he went to a live show.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Of course a live performance is a powerful combination of the visual and the auditory. There is simply no doubt that "seeing" is an extremely important and enjoyable component. I would argue, however, that the visual is an enhancement of what is fundamentally an auditory experience. Would anyone really argue with that?

When I was coming up (I started playing DB at 20), seeing the bassists was very important to me, as this was like taking a lesson in both the aural and physical aspects of playing the instrument. I sat in the front row watching Cecil McBee (with Rollins) five nights in a row. I also "saw" many other players including Charlie Haden, Mingus, Fred Hopkins, Rufus, Percy Heath... Rufus' and Cecil's technique was elegant and made the most sense to me, and became a model for my own, as they could really get around the bass. I would have had a more difficult time learning to play DB without seeing these guys in action.

 

[MolluskGoneBad]

I feel a bit chagrined by this; I definitely use "see" and "show" regularly. Thinking about it, I was initially thinking maybe I picked it up from my peers who have talked about live music (mostly rock bands) in those terms for years.

However, I do think that "saw" implies "in person" in a way that "heard" does not. Describing a conversation; if you indicate that you spoke to someone the other day, you could be talking about the telephone. Having "seen" that person strongly implies an in-person meeting, but I don't think it suggests that the verbal aspect of the conversation that took place was incidental or secondary to the visual aspect.

I'm also pretty sure it's not really a new phenomenon. I definitely remember a long dead great uncle of mine wistfully recalling having "seen" Lionel Hampton in the 40s, or grandparents/parents having "seen" Toscanini conduct or Benny Goodman perform. The music was definitely the thing for them, and there was no slight intended by using a visual metaphor to indicate live attendance.

 

[Roger Davis]

Hearing equals CD, radio LP etc.

Seeing equals a live performance. What's the difficulty?

If you have a burr under your saddle the poor ol hoss will know about it before you do.

 

[groooooove]

i use the phrase "saw a show last night." all the time. i dont go to literally "see" them. i go to hear them play live. but thats what "seeing a show" means..

 

[Tampabass]

As far as the expression "I saw x band". That's all it is. An expression. And one that makes sense. If someone said to me, "I heard Bela Fleck a few weeks ago." I'd be inclined to ask, "Yeah, which album?" at which point he'd say, "No, I mean I went to his concert." If he just said, "I saw Bela Fleck." I'd know immediately that he went to a live show.

+1
If you wanna get all Mr. Word Person on us, then I'd have to respond that to say "I saw band X" is far more accurate and conveys more of what you're trying to express than simply saying "I heard band X."

The natural assumption is that, if you saw band X, then you heard them, too. Why wouldn't you have heard them?

Saying "I saw band X" makes things clear for the listener, which, after all, is what we want to achieve with language, right?

 

[Tampabass]

and also from the department of Mr. Word Person: Unless you're using "burr" as a verb, then I think you meant to say "I got a burr...."
heh..

 

[SAlcott]

We'll all be in trouble if people stop going out to see live music.

 

[Treyzer]

When I was coming up (I started playing DB at 20), seeing the bassists was very important to me, as this was like taking a lesson in both the aural and physical aspects of playing the instrument. I sat in the front row watching Cecil McBee (with Rollins) five nights in a row. I also "saw" many other players including Charlie Haden, Mingus, Fred Hopkins, Rufus, Percy Heath... Rufus' and Cecil's technique was elegant and made the most sense to me, and became a model for my own, as they could really get around the bass. I would have had a more difficult time learning to play DB without seeing these guys in action.

Plus whatever number you want Eric.

Moi aussi. When I was much younger and living in L.A., I would go over to Dantes or the Baked Potato to catch someone live. I was not only going to hear great music, I was also going to be able to "see" and study great players in a live situation. Seeing Ray Brown was way more instructive than hearing him on records. It was a lesson and hopefully I could apply some of what I "saw" to what I was trying to become; a "bassist"! Sometimes I think we can get hung up on symantics . But hey, to each his own.

 

[VinKreepo]

Teens aren't, either.

Sure they aren't...... haha, I know what you mean, but we have a good amount of clubs here that allow them. Plus we have a music thing every 4th Friday downtown. Then again, maybe it's just my city that's like this. If so, I apologize. I mean, our top local band here smashed his basses on stage like a g**tard... perfectly good Fender P in red and black, killed it. And of course, everyone thought it was awesome.

 

[drurb]

When I was coming up (I started playing DB at 20), seeing the bassists was very important to me, as this was like taking a lesson in both the aural and physical relationship of playing the instrument. I sat in the front row watching Cecil McBee (with Rollins) five nights in a row. I also saw many other players including Charlie Haden, Mingus, Fred Hopkins, Rufus, Percy Heath... Rufus' and Cecil's technique was elegant and made the most sense to me, and became a model for my own.

As usual, no real disagreement but your purpose in learning to play by seeing the execution of technique differs, I believe, from that of the typical audience member. As I mentioned, there's just no denying the value of the visual component or, for that, matter the entire sensory Gestalt.

Speaking of looking the part, a while back I went to see a local group of young musicians led by a quite talented 20-something horn player. He was dressed as if he came out of the 60s, walked slightly stooped over, and spoke in a "cool-cat" hushed tone. Talk about affected!

 

[drurb]

However, I do think that "saw" implies "in person" in a way that "heard" does not. Describing a conversation; if you indicate that you spoke to someone the other day, you could be talking about the telephone. Having "seen" that person strongly implies an in-person meeting, but I don't think it suggests that the verbal aspect of the conversation that took place was incidental or secondary to the visual aspect.

You're right-- a further example of the visually loaded language. Just the way it is and I have no argument with it and I agree it doesn't really lead to misunderstandings. Still, I find myself saying, "I heard XXX at XXX the other night." or "I went to hear XXX." This is also clearly understood. Just my bias-- I agree with the observations here.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Both Eric and Trey seemed to misunderstand me in my OP. I was trying to make it clear by saying that I'm big on Youtube watching players. The Scotty clips are truly great as are all the one with the giants who are no longer with us.
Of course I love watching, but, what I've been noticing is because of the use of words like, seeing and words alluding to the act of a visual experience it seems that they've trumped words alluding to the listening experience lately. I'm old enough to have seen most of the great players and I would never trade that for anything. I spent months of my life practically on top of Red Mitchell and Ray Brown as they taught me how to pull sound out of my bass by me watching them play. We okay with that?
Let me ask you this by way of this question: Are you emotionally impacted when you listen to music? (either live or at home in private) I am, very much so. Are you emotionally impacted by watching players play, more than you are by just hearing them?
I'm emotionally impacted by looking at works by my favorite artists, particularly Van Gogh. At times I've felt like someone punched my in the stomach when I've seen his originals.
I admit there's some baiting going on here on my behalf because I'm trying to hear your ideas, but please, don't be thinking that I have some aversion to looking and seeing.

Yeah, I dig looking at chicks too.

EDIT: Oh, yeah....I bought a 43" flat screen HD TV a couple weeks ago and hooked it up to my Onkyo and Wharfedale's....it kills. I may be old but I ain't dead.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Both Eric and Trey seemed to misunderstand me in my OP. I was trying to make it clear by saying that I'm big on Youtube watching players.

No, I got your point and agree with what you are saying, it just got me thinking about the value of "seeing" performances, too. FWIW, I usually say, "I checked out so and so at the club..." or "I went to hear so and so...". That takes the guesswork out of "is it live or memorex?".

 

[VinKreepo]

@ Paul, oops sorry, I see what you mean.

Kinda like the difference between how my Keyboard friend sends me youtube links all the time saying how great they sound and its great music and they play with such energy etc.etc.etc.

And then how my g**tar friend always talks about how cool that band looked last night and how awesome that show was and how their instruments look amazing etc.etc.etc

I get it now...

 

[Mike Goodbar]

....I bought a 43" flat screen HD TV a couple weeks ago and hooked it up to my Onkyo and Wharfedale's....it kills. I may be old but I ain't dead.

Careful, Paul. Last time I hooked something up to my Onkyo and Wharfedales I ended up in the emergency room.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Careful, Paul. Last time I hooked something up to my Onkyo and Wharfedales I ended up in the emergency room.

Silly, Mike.....you ain't supposed to hook yer **** up to yer Onkyo and Wharfedale's. I guess you are adding another sense to the listening and visual experience.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I dunno, it's kinda like the opposite is true with even the younger cats up here, somebody asks "hey you heard anything lately" you know they're talking about attending a live performance, not asking if you bought a new CD or downloaded something. Most of the older cats use "caught" or "catch" (wanna go catch Tim Horner with Gerhardt at Kitano? or I caught him at 55 with Jim Ridl's band last summer etc.)

Trombone player I used to work with did some playing with Pony Poindexter, Tyrone said that Pony told him, if he was going to hear a band or player for the first time, to sit at the bar with his back to the band so he wouldn't be distracted by anything visual, so that his assessment would just be how it sounded.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

 

[Paul Warburton]

Bite me, Marcus.

Ed, my next weirdness before you made your post about Pony was what Michael Moore told me once and I think he was talking about Alec Wilder (don't quote me on that, but it was a famous American composer living at that time) who would come in to listen and would sit right in front of him and turn his chair around so he couldn't see the players play....he said that it messed up his focus on the music being played.

EDIT: Ed lives in NYC which is a whole other ball of wax in terms of what this discussion is about. IMO, if anybody would come up to a serious jazz player and said "I saw your show last night at Smalls...." they'd be laughed at. (nothing personal to you lookers).