I just got fired because I wouldn't Play for Free

[peterbright]

Show me the money.

 

[Turock]

Apparently I've been working my tail off for no reason - silly me.

Live and learn.

 

[ogrossman]

Those who wish to play for free should do so... in their own basements... instead of cheapening the scene and cutting the throats of fellow musicians (with mouths to feed).
If someone's passion for music is so great that they would play for free, then quit that cushy day job and go for it full time... or get out of the way for those that do.

I'm in a band with four other guys who are much worse off financially than I am. It's funny because they're more willing to play for free than I am. They're always hoping to get a foot in the door somewhere. We all agree though when it comes to playing for charity for no pay.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Playing a religious gig can be EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. There is a whole different mindset. If the musician subscribes to the same mindset of the religion he is supporting (and it is Christian or like Christianity in regards to service and money) then he should align with their beliefs or not be there. That being said even different christain churches will handle this differently and then there is the fact that Christian pro musicians also have to eat. Even the music playing tribe in the old testament got enough to live one.

Depending on the church you go to you could be tithing your time, your gas money, your talent, all in the service of your God. Since this is expected in some churches then you aren't undercutting anyone.

But in the commercial establishments that basically worship the almighty dollar, then they don't want to share their God it seems hypocritical. Then when someone comes along and offers to play for free you are lowering the standard for everyone else who deserves a piece of that pie.

It's almost like saying in a religious argument that playing music for God is less worthy than doing something else for him... IE you can't have access to God through music because you aren't a pastor. I know it seems absurd, but only as absurd as bars who EXPECT to pay NOTHING for DECENT or GOOD bands.

I find this thread very interesting and would like to add a different perspective.

I sub on a worship team in a medium sized Church for free. I don't play because it is fun (it usually is, but not always), I play for religious reasons. None of the musicians on these teams (except the fulltime worship pastor) get paid. If they paid me I would be grateful but I don't expect it. Granted, this is a different situation than a club where the goal is to get people to buy drinks and/or food. We could argue that my situation undercuts those who want to play on a Worship team for pay, but I fear that would turn into a religious argument that I don't want to get into. In my mind, this situation (playing on a worship team) isn't about making money, its about individuals having an opportunity to serve.

However, playing the worship services has lead to a couple of paying gigs and an offer to join a fulltime band. For those situations I won't play for free because I choose not to. I make too much money in my day job to make the gig money meaningful. However, the money represents the value of my free time which *is* important to me.

For what its worth, I turned down the offer to join the band.

For those of you asking how some of us hobbiests would feel if others offered to do our day jobs for free, I'd like to point a few things out...

1) To play music one generally doesn't need a college degree.
This has the effect of lowering the barrier of entry for hobbiests. I don't mean to say "anyone" can play music well, just that the qualifications are measured differently from other careers. One still has to play well imho, but that doesn't mean he has to get formal training. One could teach themselves by playing along with the radio or CDs for example. One could also go to Julliard School of music and probably be a superior (or at least a more informed) musician. My point is to play in a club usually doesn't require a resume showing how much formal schooling one has.

2) For the line of work I do (in electronics), one needs at least six years of college to get in the door which is quite expensive. This raises the barrier to entry for prospective electronics hobbiests. I haven't met a hobbiest yet who would undercut my pay rate. One could theoretically learn my trade by reading books in a library for free, but I have never seen this happen. Plus, the hobbiest's resume needs to show a college degree as that is what virtually 100% of his competition has.

3) In my job, there are countries where workers are willing to do the job for a much lower rate which has forced me to show I am worth the extra money. This has included me gaining extra skills.

I don't intend this to start a flame war, but I do want to bring another perspective for consideration.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Also wanted to point out that the college degree thing is a moot point.

What if you were washing cars or being a basic chef for minimum wage, but their were people who loved doing those things so much that they would do them for free. That wouldn't upset you.

Plus it does either take a rare natural talent or lots of time to develop into a musician that is decent. It is pretty much not even arguable that a decent musician to put way more time/development into playing than people who have minimum wage jobs have to put into their job. Yet these musicians should play for free? Hell they aren't even worth the $20 they paid in gas to get to 5 practices and the gig itself. They are so worthless they should expect to lose money (all sarcasm folks.)

I find this thread very interesting and would like to add a different perspective.

I sub on a worship team in a medium sized Church for free. I don't play because it is fun (it usually is, but not always), I play for religious reasons. None of the musicians on these teams (except the fulltime worship pastor) get paid. If they paid me I would be grateful but I don't expect it. Granted, this is a different situation than a club where the goal is to get people to buy drinks and/or food. We could argue that my situation undercuts those who want to play on a Worship team for pay, but I fear that would turn into a religious argument that I don't want to get into. In my mind, this situation (playing on a worship team) isn't about making money, its about individuals having an opportunity to serve.

However, playing the worship services has lead to a couple of paying gigs and an offer to join a fulltime band. For those situations I won't play for free because I choose not to. I make too much money in my day job to make the gig money meaningful. However, the money represents the value of my free time which *is* important to me.

For what its worth, I turned down the offer to join the band.

For those of you asking how some of us hobbiests would feel if others offered to do our day jobs for free, I'd like to point a few things out...

1) To play music one generally doesn't need a college degree.
This has the effect of lowering the barrier of entry for hobbiests. I don't mean to say "anyone" can play music well, just that the qualifications are measured differently from other careers. One still has to play well imho, but that doesn't mean he has to get formal training. One could teach themselves by playing along with the radio or CDs for example. One could also go to Julliard School of music and probably be a superior (or at least a more informed) musician. My point is to play in a club usually doesn't require a resume showing how much formal schooling one has.

2) For the line of work I do (in electronics), one needs at least six years of college to get in the door which is quite expensive. This raises the barrier to entry for prospective electronics hobbiests. I haven't met a hobbiest yet who would undercut my pay rate. One could theoretically learn my trade by reading books in a library for free, but I have never seen this happen. Plus, the hobbiest's resume needs to show a college degree as that is what virtually 100% of his competition has.

3) In my job, there are countries where workers are willing to do the job for a much lower rate which has forced me to show I am worth the extra money. This has included me gaining extra skills.

I don't intend this to start a flame war, but I do want to bring another perspective for consideration.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

OK here I will put my spin on Devils' advocate though. People are rewarded in different way. We learned a little about this in one of my managemen classes.

Employers do best when they reward everyone equally but not exactly the same. (I mean taking into account that the reward is proportional to the contribution.)

You see Amy here values money so when she is up for a pay raise or bonus the bigger the better.

John likes time off. He would rather have that more than money.

Jenny likes to be recognized and appreciated. At the next company meeting she should get an award for something. She would appreciate this A LOT more than mjust money or time off.

Ed likes power. We'll see if we can reward him by promoting him into a spot where he would be even more useful. Probably would be happy with more money but it doen't need to be as big a raise as say Amy.

The Golden rule doesn't apply well here. It should be the Platinum rule. Treat others as they want to be treated and tell them how you want to be treated.

That being said different people have different values and it is good to be on a team where you share the same values when you are all getting paid (money, exposure, women, booze) the same way.

 

[sonicnuance]

Also wanted to point out that the college degree thing is a moot point.

What if you were washing cars or being a basic chef for minimum wage, but their were people who loved doing those things so much that they would do them for free. That wouldn't upset you.

Plus it does either take a rare natural talent or lots of time to develop into a musician that is decent. It is pretty much not even arguable that a decent musician to put way more time/development into playing than people who have minimum wage jobs have to put into their job. Yet these musicians should play for free? Hell they aren't even worth the $20 they paid in gas to get to 5 practices and the gig itself. They are so worthless they should expect to lose money (all sarcasm folks.)

I agree to get good at playing requires years of study - actually a lifetime imho.

My point was regarding "barrier to entry". What you described is a low barrier to entry (minimum wage jobs). Having a degree requirement for a job by definition raises the barrier of entry. In other words, it reduces the amount competition and hence the chances of lowering wages.

You asked if I would be upset that people would be willing to do my low-wage job for free. It would force me to make sure I was worth the extra money above the competition (more skills, better performance, etc). If I felt I couldn't compete or that I couldn't make enough money then I'd consider doing something else. I'd probably be upset for a while, but I'd move on somehow. This has happened to me in a high paying job (although the competition was willing to do the work for some pay). I walked away from the situation and gained new skills.

 

[invisaman75]

I am posting this mostly because I find it humorous and was wanting to hear a few opinions about it.

First, let me say this is a cover band.

Second, I have been less than enthused with about 1/2 of the song selections, and I have been keeping my ear to the ground for a new band anyway.

Third, When I was asked to join I let them know in no uncertain terms that I did not want to be in a practice band and that working was my first priority.

Here is the email I got from them Yesterday.

Jimi,

We discussed it as a group and we have decided that we want to go with another bass player. We appreciate the areas where you have helped. However there are some fundamental differences. As a band we want the freedom to be able to play anytime we want without pay being the top priority. We sincerely hope that we can remain friends and possibly help each other down the road.
We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors and hope to see you at a show sometime.

Regards,

The Band

It's really to bad as we just added a really good keyboard player and he was keeping the guitars in line and things were tightening up nicely. Although in the long run I think they just helped me out because I am not good a quiting until things become totally intolerable.

Curious to read your thoughts now.

Thanks,
Jimi

Pros can't afford to play for free at all, semi-pros can do it sometimes and amateurs do it all the time.

So it maybe that you and your band are in different catogories!

 

[von buck]

Mercenary and proud. You can throw in whore if you want to.

Andy, whoring for thirty years

OK, so I'm quoting myself. I just want to clear something. When I say I don't play for free, I should add I don't play bass for free. I also play theremin and there is very little work for it, unless you count as a sound effect in ar ock band, but don't get me started on that...
I will play theremin for free, for the same reason most bass players will play for free, for the fun of it.
But even that depends on the situation. If there is money to be made, I'll go for it.
Andy