I learn all this stuff about the pentatonic scale...

[Febs]

Okay....I think I get it. C major chord, A minor because it's the sixth, F is major because it's the IV, but why is it G7? Could you just stick a G chord in there? It is a V....

Take a C scale:

C D E F G A B

Then stack thirds on each note:

C D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D E

Then stack thirds on each note again

C D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F G

You end up with the following triads:

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C

If you repeat the process one more time:

C D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F G
B C D E F G A B

You end up with the following:

CMaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, G7, Amin7, B, half-dim, CMaj7

So to answer your question, the V chord in the progression above is a G chord, and the V7 is a G7 chord. You could use either. However, the G7 chord will pull very strongly back to the I chord.

Also, regarding chord tones---some chords in from the Degrees of a C major scale have notes that aren't written in the key signature.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

 

[shwashwa]

pentatonics- all you need to know
http://www.amazon.com/Pentatonics-I...reative=383841&linkCode=wss&tag=casavaldez-20

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by flareaga
Okay....I think I get it. C major chord, A minor because it's the sixth, F is major because it's the IV, but why is it G7? Could you just stick a G chord in there? It is a V....

Already explained - another slant. Why do we make the V a V7? To increase the tension. We call V7 the dominant seventh, V is already the dominant chord with out the seventh so yes you can just use V if you like. It is already functioning as the dominant chord. Adding the b7 makes it a climax chord - climax is my word for it

It has become common practice to use V7 instead of V. Why? Only reason I know of is to add tension to help increase the pull to the I tonic chord. It's like V7 is the climax chord once there go to I - right now - anything else would be anti-climatic. Here is an example of a progression using both V and V7.

I, V, I, IV, V7, I

 

[flareaga]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

In a major key the chords are always I ii iii IV V vi vii(diminished), correct?

Well are all the notes within these chords in the key of the tonic? What I mean is, doesn't the vii chord have notes that aren't in the key signature?

 

[esoomssab]

In a major key, the diatonic triads are what you listed, yes. I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim). So the answer to your first question is yes, all of these chords are in the key of the tonic.

Any of these chords can also be made into diatonic seventh chords, which Febs charts out in his post.

So the diatonic V triad in the key of C would just be G B D. The diatonic V7 in the key of C would be G B D F.

And as Malcolm points out, the reason to use a V7 instead of just a V is to add tension. The third and the seventh of the V7 (in the key of C - the V7 is GBDF - the third and the seventh are B and F) create the interval of a tritone. These are also called tendency tones within the key. They want to move somewhere else. So when you throw both into one chord, you create more tension. The F really really wants to move to the third of the I chord (E) and the B really really wants to move to the root of the I chord (C).

The vii(dim) chord is still diatonic - because of the way the major scale is structured means that it doesn't get a perfect fifth, it's a diminished fifth.

 

[shwashwa]

What I mean is, doesn't the vii chord have notes that aren't in the key signature?

no
B diminished triad is B-D-F.
you are talking about triads above. if you were talking about 7th chords then the chord built on the vii is minor 7 flat 5 or, half diminished 7th chord, which in the key of C is B-D-F-A. all diatonic notes to C major scale

 

[wade_b]

For example in a major key you got three major chords. I IV V right?

Lets say in the key of C, we got C F and G. They're all

major so what notes do I play on top of them? Major scale? No!

???

If you're in the key of C, and you're sticking to diatonic chords with no modulations, then you most certainly would use appropriate notes from the C major scale over each of the chords you mention.

Because the fourth in the IV chord position is actually a sharp, while the 7th in the V chord position is flat. So you can't play a major scale on F because that would have a Bb, while because we're in the key of C its just a B.

With all due respect, this is extremely confusing and not very useful.

"Sharp" with respect to what?

The notes in the IV chord are all found within the Key signature of C major - stacked thirds starting with the 4th note of the C major scale is really all anyone needs to know.

Of course you wouldn't play inappropriate notes from the key of F major over an F chord acting as a IV in the key of C; for the purposes of this discussion, it's probably wise to encourage the OP to know the key signature, stay within it, and begin to understand harmony fundamentals in that context.

 

[JTE]

In a major key the chords are always I ii iii IV V vi vii(diminished), correct?

Well are all the notes within these chords in the key of the tonic? What I mean is, doesn't the vii chord have notes that aren't in the key signature?

Look again at the post above from Febs. Now it makes more sense to me to do the same thing, except STACK the thirds.

Write out the C major scale -
C D E F G A B C

Then do it again, with the thirds on top, but stay in C major- this gives you intervals of a third (both major and minor)
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Add another level of thirds to get the triads- note that we're still ONLY using notes from C major...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time to get the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A C
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now, take elementary basic harmony and analyze those stacks of notes. The first one is C E G B. That's the 1, 3, 5, and 7 of the root (C); it's a major third (C to E) with a minor third on top of it (E to G), and a major third on top of that (G to B); and it's a major triad with a major 7 added. All those are definitions of a major 7. The second stack is D F A C. That's 1, b3, 5, b7 of the root (D), that's a minor third (D to F), with a major 3rd (F to A), and a minor 3 (A to C), and it's a minor triad (D F A) with a minor 7th- three definitions of a minor 7.

To specifically answer your question about the vii chord... The 7th stack is B D F A. All those notes are in the key of C. That's the 1, b3, b5 b7 of the root (B). B to D is a minor 3rd, D to F is a minor 3, F to A is a major 3. And it's a diminished triad (B D F) with a minor 7. That's a minor7 b5 also commonly called a half-diminished chord. If you carry it out to the 7th it's NOT a diminished chord. Why? Because a diminished 7 chord is all minor third so a Bdim would be B D F Ab. THAT one has a note outside the tonic's key (C), but it's not the chord that comes from harmonizing the major scale.

John

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It's worth mentioning that there's some potential confusion in referring to "diminished" chords.

Technically, diminished, with respect to chords, is one of the 4 main flavors of triads: root/minor 3rd/diminished 5th. B-D-F is an example of this kind of triad.

But very often, both in speech and in writing, musicians use the term "diminished" to refer to what is technically a diminished 7th chord: root/minor 3rd/diminished 5th/diminished 7th. If I ruled the world, I would insist that the distinction between a diminished triad and a diminished 7th chord be rigorously observed; however, I don't rule the world (just as well, believe me), and I think that battle is long lost. Personally, I try to say and write "dim7" when that's what I mean, but I admit that a big chunk of the musical world doesn't bother.

I point this out because when we talk about harmonizing degrees of the scale, I've seen some confusion on this--eg, why does A say the chord on the vii is diminished, and B says it's half-diminished? The reason is simply that A is talking about triads, which have 3 notes, and B is talking about 7th chords, which have 4 notes. That's why, as JTE was careful to point out, the diatonic 7th chord built on the 7th degree of the major scale is a diminished triad with a minor 7th on top. It's worth remembering that a half-diminished (7th) chord is still built on a diminished triad--there being no concept of a half-diminished triad--but it's not a "full" diminished 7th chord because it has "only" a minor 7th on top, not a diminished 7th.

 

[mambo4]

some chords in from the Degrees of a C major scale have notes that aren't written in the key signature.

Nope, as mentioned. The chords are by definition using only the notes of the scale.
That does not mean that you can't change things up by extending or altering the chords like a jazz head
...but then the chords can become "non-diatonic" not wrong necessarily, just different.

And the pentatonic scales are basically all the "safe" notes?

Let's say 99% safe...there is always a chance that you may hit an odd note against the current chord, but it all depends on context.
Your ear and stylistic knowledge is better than any theoretic rule for determining what works. but pentatonic are a very useful starting point for experimenting and exploring ideas.

 

[flareaga]

Oh, okay! So the triads are the notes in the chord...and let's say you play a G major chord on the guitar, and looking at it now...I see that all the notes in the chord are the notes in the triad. I was thinking about chords completely the wrong way.

 

[Minotauros]

At the risk of confusing the issue (and myself) further, is a half-dim7 actually the 6th degree of the scale, a bb7 (R b3 b5 bb7), and a dim7 is R b3 b5 b7? I thought I remember my former teacher saying that. And a diminished triad is R b3 b5?

 

[shwashwa]

At the risk of confusing the issue (and myself) further, is a half-dim7 actually the 6th degree of the scale, a bb7 (R b3 b5 bb7), and a dim7 is R b3 b5 b7? I thought I remember my former teacher saying that. And a diminished triad is R b3 b5?

a half diminished chord occurs on the 7th degree of the major scale. in c major that would be B half diminished. the intervals are R-min3- b5 and min 7. or B-D-F-A.
a fully diminished chord does not occur in the major scale harmony. its intervals are R-min3, b5-bb7. or B-D-F-Ab.

 

[Eminentbass]

At the risk of confusing the issue (and myself) further, is a half-dim7 actually the 6th degree of the scale, a bb7 (R b3 b5 bb7), and a dim7 is R b3 b5 b7? I thought I remember my former teacher saying that. And a diminished triad is R b3 b5?

A half-dim is a minor7b5 and which is R-b3-b5-b7 and in jazz, diminished(or dim7) refers to the triad with a bb7. I say in jazz because when I studied classical we only dealt with diminished chords as triads and in cases where they would diatonically be half-diminished if the 7th were to be included.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

At the risk of confusing the issue (and myself) further, is a half-dim7 actually the 6th degree of the scale, a bb7 (R b3 b5 bb7), and a dim7 is R b3 b5 b7?

It's actually just the opposite.

Diminished triad: 1 b3 b5
Half-diminished (7th) chord (m7b5): 1 b3 b5 b7
Diminished (7th) chord: 1 b3 b5 bb7

The bb7 is enharmonically equivalent to the major 6th, but for analytical purposes the two should be understood as different notes.

 

[Minotauros]

It's actually just the opposite.

D'oh! *smacks forehead*

Diminished triad: 1 b3 b5
Half-diminished (7th) chord (m7b5): 1 b3 b5 b7
Diminished (7th) chord: 1 b3 b5 bb7

^^ Yep, that's what I thought I learned, stating it backwards notwithstanding.

The bb7 is enharmonically equivalent to the major 6th, but for analytical purposes the two should be understood as different notes.

Gotch, thanks.

 

[Minotauros]

a half diminished chord occurs on the 7th degree of the major scale. in c major that would be B half diminished. the intervals are R-min3- b5 and min 7. or B-D-F-A.
a fully diminished chord does not occur in the major scale harmony. its intervals are R-min3, b5-bb7. or B-D-F-Ab.

A half-dim is a minor7b5 and which is R-b3-b5-b7 and in jazz, diminished(or dim7) refers to the triad with a bb7. I say in jazz because when I studied classical we only dealt with diminished chords as triads and in cases where they would diatonically be half-diminished if the 7th were to be included.

Btw, thanks to you guys too.

 

[dalkowski]

BTW That blues scale is the minor pentatonic with the blue note added.

Gotta lay off the blue stuff. That's what killed Bob Goulet.

 

[Eminentbass]

Btw, thanks to you guys too.

you're welcome an interesting thing about the diminished chord is its relationship to a dominant 7th. If you take a dominant 7th chord and raise the root by a semi-tone you get a diminished chord with that raised root making a nice passing chord when going from the dominant to the relative minor.