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I love reading through all the amp stuff, and I have a small request.

So Anyway, my little Americana Trio plays wineries, Antler Clubs and a few Park & Recreation events.
I always play for the stage +15 feet. My first concern is that our band can hear each other. Anyone wanting to dance/listen will move close to us.
People who sit farther away want to talk to each other. We're at best a pleasant distraction for them. Current setup is a Fender Rumble 800 combo that has 2 tens.
Anything more than that, there should be FOH support, and I'll run a line to the PA.

I've played big venues in the past, but not often enough to be expert. But the idea is the same, play for the stage and let the PA do the heavy lifting.
 
a loooong time ago I read "100 watts per 100 people" as a rule of thumb. ( 200 people? I forget )
Might have been in a sound reinforcement manual

Number of people does imply a certain range of room size
I had that same rule of thumb for tube amps and twice as much for solid state amps.

But……….

I always bring my 500 watt hybrid head amp with my two 99db efficient 112 cabs no matter the room cause I like to have some headroom.

Also , I saw a guy with an Ampeg tube amp of 50 watts with two 115 Ampeg cabs driving the show in a 250 people room and it was crazy loud !

Efficiency and surface of woofers are key I guess.
 
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IME/IMO you only have to worry about different sized rigs if you have to carry the house, which is mainly going to be the smallest venues without full PA/mon. Any decent sized club should have a system that can carry bass, so your rig is just your personal "more me" monitor. It's really a matter of how loud the rest of your band is, not how big the hall is.

But for what it's worth, my rough and completely arbitrary size guide would be:
  • 0-100: bar/small club
  • 100-500: club
  • 500-1000: large club/small theater
  • 1000-3000: large theater
  • >3000: jumbo theater/arena/stadium/festival
 
I don't generally think of size of room.

How is monitoring handled?

If it's IEMs, I don't need an amp. Am I dealing with the IEMS/monitoring or is the sound person? I just have a pedal board with DI out. And I bring my own IEMs just in case.

If it's more traditional monitoring, I need enough to be heard over the drummer. Rock and Roll? Punk Rock? Metal? Prog? It's a loud drummer. Jazz- less concern.

Because I play rock, I target 2x10 or 1x12 on bass with 200W at the small end (practice/bar/small club) up to maybe 400w+ and 4x10 or 2x12 or 2x15 on the high end (really loud drummers and club). This was what I grew up on, but is disappearing. IEMs becoming more common.


Do I have to carry the room or not? If I have to carry the room (small clubs, bars) then the rig used for traditional monitoring above will work especially with the higher wattage. Most gigs want less volume these days. Even when we provide PA, which is for bar/small clubs, it's mainly carrying the vocals, and the rest of the band carries the room (guitar, drums, bass).


But for what it's worth, my rough and completely arbitrary size guide would be:
  • 0-100: bar/small club
  • 100-500: club
  • 500-1000: large club/small theater
  • 1000-3000: large theater
  • >3000: jumbo theater/arena/stadium/festival

Those sizes are how I think of it as well in terms of people. But the first 2 are "I carry the room" and the last 3 are the sound system is carrying and there is a sound person. And then it goes to monitoring.
 
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Quite a few all-tube aficionados might would this point, as they feel their amp must be pushed a bit to sound it's best. So a 400W tube amp is not going to be optimum if you need to keep the volume down. Whether this is relevant can vary from one amp design to the next. It can also vary with the type of tone and feel you want.
Good points. I’m sure there are more than a few that would take issue. lol…

I just picked up an Ampeg SGT-DI pedal last week. It does a reasonable rendition of the “driven” sound running it to the effects return of my 400 watt amp even at lower volumes. And I haven’t had time to really dial it in. I sold my well driven SVT decades ago, so I’m going off my memory for my AB test..lol
 
As long as amps come with volume controls, you never have to worry about having too much. From an acquisition stand point, there isn’t to much difference in price to get from barely enough to get by to overkill. 400 watt powering a fairly efficient cab(s) can cover a lot of applications.

Example, I covered a room with such a rig seating 700 people with no FOH support on a gig with an 11 piece Motown review band with horns. Same band with FOH support, I use 300 watts powering a 112 cab as a personal monitor.

On the other hand, if you are playing doom rock with a couple of guitarist with each with 100 watt Marshall stacks and a drummer that plays with axe handles, you may need to revisit the 400 watt one cab thing or pray for FOH support.
You're right about the volume control with one caveat that was driven home to me in spades when I moved to Washington state in 2015.

I found myself playing in two groups. One, a 5-pc. rock group with bass, drums, 2 guitarists, and a keys player. Keys player was the female vocalist. The BL sung most of the songs and I sang a couple per set too. Second group was a Blues/Rock Trio.

I had received my DNS-410 cab at my home in Virginia just about 3 days before we loaded everything up and moved just under 3,000-miles away. That cab handles 1400-watts with a max SPL of 137db. Sound is clean and super clear and if you like to play bass chords, you will very distinctly hear all three notes. It's a very LOUD cab and doesn't take a lot to get it up to gig levels. I would feed it with my 800-watt Eden amp bridged into it at 800-watts. I figured I had bought the last cab I'd ever need to buy because, you know...that volume knob works just fine. Man was I in for a surprise.

The 5-pc group had a standing gig on Friday nights from 7 to 10PM at a small brewpub. It would hold about 60-people or so indoors and if they opened the patio outside, that would go up to a couple of hundred. I rolled my DNS-410 into the brewpub and the owner's eyes got as big as silver dollars. He said, "That's way too much for here. Use that Peavey 112 combo over there.

Although that Peavey was loud enough for that small room, I ever could get that little 112 combo to sound good. I ended up buying an Eden TN226 (225-watts rms) and a 4Ω Eden EX-112 for small venues and that's a great and very light set-up for small venues of say, 100-people or less. It sounds great and it's enough power for those small venues (we have over 400 brewpubs in the stated of Washington!)

So you are absolutely right @dbsfgyd1, with judicious use of your Master volume control, one cab is all it takes. And, my DNA cabs just like my Eden cabs, sound great throughout their volume range from soft to LOUD! But you don't fight with the owner of a place if you want to come back. Since we played that place over 40 Friday Nights per year hosting their Open Mic night, it was important not to piss off the owner.

You're also spot on about 400-watts handling a lot venues. My DNA-800 amp puts out 400-watts into my 8Ω DNS-210 cab and will put out 800-watts into a 4Ω load. I've found that with just 400-watts, I can get plenty loud enough for most of my venues. I even use my DNA-800 amp putting 400-watts into my 410 cab when playing outdoors within a confined space (lots of reflections). But for a wide open Music Festival I'll rbeak out my Eden WT500/800 and bridge it at 800-watts into my 410 for that. With that rig I get told to turn down if I run my master up to 10:30, so I set it at 10:15 and thank Eden and DNA that I don't need to lug around an 810 cab.
 
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Excellent question! I've been playing bass since 1979. I still have my original Peavey TKO amp in a practice space. For years I hauled around a huge Earth B2000 tube head through a beefy EV cabinet. I had to take the spare tire out of the trunk of my Chevy Nova to fit the cabinet in the car. I never turned that head above 5, and we'd blow people away from the stage outdoors. About 12 years ago I downsized to an Ampeg Pf-500 through the matching 2x10 cabinet. I've played that in small spaces, bigger bars, parking lots, in packed crowds playing alongside the New York City Marathon, outdoor music festivals without FoH support, etc. I've never stacked another cabinet with it. I've always had enough power to be heard in the mix.

My headroom is the spare cabinet that never leaves my car. Now that I have to help the drummer lug his stuff around, I sometimes downsize to a Trace Eliot Elf through some random 1x10 cabinet if I'm stuffed in the corner of a bar. I guess my thought is that if you believe you will ever need 800w, there will be FoH support. Find the combination that sounds good to you, that has some power, that is within your budget and fits in whatever spot you will store it in without upsetting your housemate(s). You will find that you will always have what you need.
 
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You're right about the volume control with one caveat that was driven home to me in spades when I moved to Washington state in 2015.

I found myself playing in two groups. One, a 5-pc. rock group with bass, drums, 2 guitarists, and a keys player. Keys player was the female vocalist. The BL sung most of the songs and I sang a couple per set too. Second group was a Blues/Rock Trio.

I had received my DNS-410 cab at my home in Virginia just about 3 days before we loaded everything up and moved just under 3,000-miles away. That cab handles 1400-watts with a max SPL of 137db. Sound is clean and super clear and if you like to play bass chords, you will very distinctly hear all three notes. It's a very LOUD cab and doesn't take a lot to get it up to gig levels. I would feed it with my 800-watt Eden amp bridged into it at 800-watts. I figured I had bought the last cab I'd ever need to buy because, you know...that volume knob works just fine. Man was I in for a surprise.

The 5-pc group had a standing gig on Friday nights from 7 to 10PM at a small brewpub. It would hold about 60-people or so indoors and if they opened the patio outside, that would go up to a couple of hundred. I rolled my DNS-410 into the brewpub and the owner's eyes got as big as silver dollars. He said, "That's way too much for here. Use that Peavey 112 combo over there.

Although that Peavey was loud enough for that small room, I ever could get that little 112 combo to sound good. I ended up buying an Eden TN226 (225-watts rms) and a 4Ω Eden EX-112 for small venues and that's a great and very light set-up for small venues of say, 100-people or less. It sounds great and it's enough power for those small venues (we have over 400 brewpubs in the stated of Washington!)

So you are absolutely right @dbsfgyd1, with judicious use of your Master volume control, one cab is all it takes. And, my DNA cabs just like my Eden cabs, sound great throughout their volume range from soft to LOUD! But you don't fight with the owner of a place if you want to come back. Since we played that place over 40 Friday Nights per year hosting their Open Mic night, it was important not to piss off the owner.

You're also spot on about 400-watts handling a lot venues. My DNA-800 amp puts out 400-watts into my 8Ω DNS-210 cab and will put out 800-watts into a 4Ω load. I've found that with just 400-watts, I can get plenty loud enough for most of my venues. I even use my DNA-800 amp putting 400-watts into my 410 cab when playing outdoors within a confined space (lots of reflections). But for a wide open Music Festival I'll rbeak out my Eden WT500/800 and bridge it at 800-watts into my 410 for that. With that rig I get told to turn down if I run my master up to 10:30, so I set it at 10:15 and thank Eden and DNA that I don't need to lug around an 810 cab.
+ one on DNA cabs. if I didn’t have a lifetime supply of Eden D-cabs already, I’d be hunting one down. I bought an 8 ohm D-112-XST last summer for small venues gigs and more specially for gigs with FOH support. i set my Mesa WD-800 for two ohms which limits the output to 300 watts when it sees an 8 ohm load and makes it a good match for the 300 RMS ratting on the 112 cab.

I did a “Vinny” rig for my last non-FOH gig , a Motown Review band, powering it with my Mesa head. Wow! It was sooo right!

I ruled out 410s and opted for two 210 cabs as for most gigs and rehearsals only one cab was needed. I ruled out the Metro when I realized it weighs about as much as their 410 cab and opted for Eden’s rack amp set up (Navi + WT-1250).
 
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..... I rolled my DNS-410 into the brewpub and the owner's eyes got as big as silver dollars. He said, "That's way too much for here. ....

I hear that. My old band did a gig in (a small bar) RI years ago, and I used my same rig as everywhere else. SWR Goliath III 410 cab, and SWR 550 Head.

As I was wheelin her in, some of the (older) folks sittin at the bar were talking about 'how loud it was gonna be'. (they didn't know I had a Volume control, I guess).

It ALWAYS sounded awesome, and was always, 'Just enough" as I had that Volume control. But yea, the bigger Cabs sure can Scare some folks. :thumbsup: :thumbsup::nailbiting:


T$
 
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When people are saying "You should have X wattage, and Y speakers for Z room."

My question is for, generally speaking, how many people fit in a "Small", a "Medium", and a "Large" room?

Way back when, I used a 200-watt combo (1 x15) with a compact 1 x 15 on top of it for all of my (admittedly small number of) gigs, and never really had it cranked up. The gigs were in a variety of smaller places, so, I can't comment on anything bigger.

Just kind of looking for a rule of thumb on what a room "size" is.
The larger the room the more handles you need on your amp.
 
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I'd assume horizontal stacking? It seems like vertical stacking would result in too much space between audience ear levels.

well, it depends. in a concert crowd you might see vertical stacking as well.

if the goal is just to put a big number of people in a small room, well, the Dexter movie has some tips for making them even more compact and stackable. but yes, this comes with certain drawbacks.
 
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I hear that. My old band did a gig in (a small bar) RI years ago, and I used my same rig as everywhere else. SWR Goliath III 410 cab, and SWR 550 Head.

As I was wheelin her in, some of the (older) folks sittin at the bar were talking about 'how loud it was gonna be'. (they didn't know I had a Volume control, I guess).

It ALWAYS sounded awesome, and was always, 'Just enough" as I had that Volume control. But yea, the bigger Cabs sure can Scare some folks. :thumbsup: :thumbsup::nailbiting:


T$
Same with my 410! It always sounded great whether I was playing it at low volumes for small venues or much higher levels for Music Festivals. But they didn't even want to give it a chance. I ended up buying 3 more cabs and 2 more amps before I was done.
 
+ one on DNA cabs. if I didn’t have a lifetime supply of Eden D-cabs already, I’d be hunting one down. I bought an 8 ohm D-112-XST last summer for small venues gigs and more specially for gigs with FOH support. i set my Mesa WD-800 for two ohms which limits the output to 300 watts when it sees an 8 ohm load and makes it a good match for the 300 RMS ratting on the 112 cab.

I did a “Vinny” rig for my last non-FOH gig , a Motown Review band, powering it with my Mesa head. Wow! It was sooo right!

I ruled out 410s and opted for two 210 cabs as for most gigs and rehearsals only one cab was needed. I ruled out the Metro when I realized it weighs about as much as their 410 cab and opted for Eden’s rack amp set up (Navi + WT-1250).
I'm not sure if @agedhorse had that in mind when he designed it but that turned out being a really good way to use it for a 112. I think it was really smart or at least opportune to make an amp capable of putting out a max of 800-watts but also being able to flip a switch to limit it to 300-watts for an 8Ω cab.

I originally ran my EX112 with my old Nemesis RS400 amp which could put 400-watts into that Eden EX-112 that had just 300-watts power handling. To be safer, I bought that class D Eden TN226 that only puts out 225-watts into 4Ω. I only use that amp at small venues and I am normally very careful not to stress my cabs, but having 100-watts more on hand than the cab could handle always made me a bit nervous about it.

If I remember the Vinny-Rig correctly that was a D212XLT+D210XST driven by a WT405. Everybody who ever used that would rave about how good it sounded. That had to be a great sound powered by your Mesa amp for a Motown Review.
 
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I'm not sure if @agedhorse had that in mind when he designed it but that turned out being a really good way to use it for a 112. I think it was really smart or at least opportune to make an amp capable of putting out a max of 800-watts but also being able to flip a switch to limit it to 300-watts for an 8Ω cab.

I originally ran my EX112 with my old Nemesis RS400 amp which could put 400-watts into that Eden EX-112 that had just 300-watts power handling. To be safer, I bought that class D Eden TN226 that only puts out 225-watts into 4Ω. I only use that amp at small venues and I am normally very careful not to stress my cabs, but having 100-watts more on hand than the cab could handle always made me a bit nervous about it.

If I remember the Vinny-Rig correctly that was a D212XLT+D210XST driven by a WT405. Everybody who ever used that would rave about how good it sounded. That had to be a great sound powered by your Mesa amp for a Motown Review.
Actually, I believe I asked agedhorse why this feature wasn’t in the owners manual? I don’t remember the exact quote, but this omission didn’t happen because of anybody in the engineering department.

This was one of the features that is really useful. I have a D-210-XLT, rated at 350 watts RMS and like you I really don’t want an amp with wattage more than a cab’s RMS rating. I find the my Eden cabs start to get harsh sounding when you get to an 80% of that RMS rating. I also don’t like the idea of replacing speakers that are no longer being manufactured.

As for the WD-800, it took me a while to get an Eden like tone as the 3 band parametric EQ is not the same and the amp is very high mid centered. Norchow absolutely nailed his. So easy to use. Sigh.
 
For me it depends mostly on the drummer. My drummer plays with a very controled volume, so a 400W amp (800W @ 8 ohm) and my 1x12 Barefaced cab are more than enough for any stage including outdoor. The only way he could play louder than me is if he gets PA support, and in that case, I can also have PA support if needed so…
I always say, if it's an acoustic kit and you're playing w/o any drums in the PA, just the kit and stage amps carrying the room...and you can't hear the kick? Then you're too loud (now go tell the guitarists...)
 
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Excellent question! I've been playing bass since 1979. I still have my original Peavey TKO amp in a practice space. For years I hauled around a huge Earth B2000 tube head through a beefy EV cabinet. I had to take the spare tire out of the trunk of my Chevy Nova to fit the cabinet in the car. I never turned that head above 5, and we'd blow people away from the stage outdoors. About 12 years ago I downsized to an Ampeg Pf-500 through the matching 2x10 cabinet. I've played that in small spaces, bigger bars, parking lots, in packed crowds playing alongside the New York City Marathon, outdoor music festivals without FoH support, etc. I've never stacked another cabinet with it. I've always had enough power to be heard in the mix.

My headroom is the spare cabinet that never leaves my car. Now that I have to help the drummer lug his stuff around, I sometimes downsize to a Trace Eliot Elf through some random 1x10 cabinet if I'm stuffed in the corner of a bar. I guess my thought is that if you believe you will ever need 800w, there will be FoH support. Find the combination that sounds good to you, that has some power, that is within your budget and fits in whatever spot you will store it in without upsetting your housemate(s). You will find that you will always have what you need.
Regarding needing the 800-watts: In my experience it's always better to have too much and not need it instead of needing it and not having it. I had a really bad experience when I was touring with a nightclub group in the Early 70's. I had a 1966 Fender Bassman amp that I bought new in 1966 and used throughout high school and some college. Then, in late 1971 the guitarist and the keys player both bought Vox Super Beatle Amps when Thomas Organ closed them out.

These were 120-watt rms SS amps with 412 cabinets and they freaking buried my poor 50-watt Fender Bassman. First the guitarist asked me to turn up, then the drummer, then the keys player and even the female vocalist. My Bassman amp was already giving everything it had to give. So while we were playing a large club (occupancy ~1,000) in Lincoln, Nebraska I went in Hospe music and came back with a Standel MCIIb/SAM30b amp.

It was a 215, bass reflex, powered cab and it was crazy LOUD and it was heavy. Weight wasn't a problem because we typically played for 2-weeks (5-nights a week) at each venue. Never had too little rig for the gig again. In the 3 years I toured with that group we never played through a real FOH. Every once in a while we'd find a place that provided a vocals PA but nothing else. So we carried our own Kustom vocals PA with us. You can see part of it behind me in the pic below next to our guitarist and his Vox Super Beatle behind him. Notice our "classic 1970's clothing!
DanAndSteve_600x691.jpg


Even now, at least in Washington state, there are not a lot of clubs with an FOH that will let me run my bass through the board. They worry about it being too much for their speakers. There was a nice club in Monroe that had this long room with a high ceiling, which is normally a bear to handle acoustically. They were right on main street and they had dialed it in with a great FOH system and a guy who knew how to run it. Loved playing there because all I had to bring was my WTDI (DI with Eden WT preamp), my bass, and my mic. They provided good monitors too, so I left my amp and cab at home. Easiest load-in and load-out ever! But like many places, Covid put it out of business in 2020.

In any case, I expect my gear to carry the bass in each venue. Pretty much all of our indoor gigs I'll play with 400-watts coming out of my 800-watt DNA amp into an 8Ω cab, either my 210 or 410. If room is really long I'll bring out my Eden WT500/800 and bridge it at 800 watts into either my 210 (handles 700-watts rms) or my 410 (handles 1400-watts rms). But 400-watts into my 210 really does just fine for almost everything indoors. Outdoors I'll use my 410 and at music festivals I'll bridge my big Eden amp into it with all 800-watts. I could just stack my 210 on top of my 410 and use my DNA-800 class D amp to run them but my class AB WT500/800 weighs 37½-lbs in its rack and is easier to transport than a heavier and bulkier second cab.

If I could count on a good FOH and a good tech running it, I'd just bring my WTDI and use one of their monitors. Without it, I could probably get by with just fine with that 400-watts instead of the 800-watts. I just feel better and more relaxed knowing I have more than enough rig for the gig..
 
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Regarding needing
I just feel better and more relaxed knowing I have more than enough rig for the gig..

+1!

What has worked for me:
The same amp head for every job, it's (800 watts at 4 ohms, 560 watts at 8 ohms). I'll vary the number of cabinets needed (one or two, 8 ohm 210 cabinets or a 4 ohm 610 cabinet), I'll choose which cabinet combination by crowd/room or outdoor stage size.

I've FOH support 100% of the time. For a surprising number of gigs a single 8 ohm 210 works just fine.
 
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