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I run a pre-DI signal

Gearhead17

Gearhead17

Supporting Member
May 4, 2006
5,286
3,627
Mount Prospect, IL
www.afterforeverband.com
#1
Am I crazy? :hiding: I run a BB Pre-amp (guitar version) with a Radial Big Shot to blend the signals (no low end loss). So I send the sound guy a distorted signal (mixed with a clean signal) or a 100% clean signal all foot-switchable by me straight into a Radial JDI. Boom done. The amp and my cabs are for monitoring purposes only. I even knock down everything 150hz and below heavily since I am so darn close to the sub woofers. It has helped me tremendously to hear the notes I am playing by knocking down the lows on my rig. I already hear and feel the low end at my feet for every show, why add to it?

Unfortunately, I am at the mercy of the sound man for my tone, but since I have cut down on how much low end I use, downgraded from a 410 to a powerful 210, and worked very hard to play at a consistent level through the show, I think I have made their lives easier. Anybody else doing something similar? Feels good over here to share that! :D
 
#2
Nah...they're out there sitting in a chair twiddling knobs while I'm up there singing, playing with a heavy bass strapped to my bum shoulder, and sweating my ass off trying to get a reaction out of the crowd. So I mic my cab, and I get a sound I can live with first (I'm never loud but I do like to make myself comfortable and happy with my sound). And they can jolly well live with whatever I want to give them ;)
 
#3
Sounds like you may be trying to please them when it is their job to look after you.

If you give them a pre eq DI feed then they will not get any bass sound that is unique to you. Your sound and your band's sound will lack your personality and this can make the band sound less like your band and more like what the engineer likes. And who says what the engineer likes is what you do?

Nothing wrong with looking after the sound engineer, your tone is in his hands and if you piss him off he can seriously mess things up for you. Treat them with respect and explain what you need.

I just took a look at your website. You are doing just what I do over here in London. We do some of the same songs.
 
#4
The sound engineer in me says 'yeah, great!' From my side of the desk, you're ticking all the boxes.

The bass player in me says 'whatever makes you happy'. If you're comfortable with your setup, then what right does a bunch of guys on the internet have to say otherwise?

As far as the individuality thing goes, you are feeding the sound guy the tone from your fingers, your preamp, and whatever effects you're using. IMO that's over 80% of your 'uniqueness' right there; the amp has (comparatively) little effect on 'your sound'.

Personally, if I trust the soundguy, I'm totally happy to run ampless; in fact I think I prefer it!
 
#5
JimmyM said:
Nah...they're out there sitting in a chair twiddling knobs while I'm up there singing, playing with a heavy bass strapped to my bum shoulder, and sweating my ass off trying to get a reaction out of the crowd. So I mic my cab, and I get a sound I can live with first (I'm never loud but I do like to make myself comfortable and happy with my sound). And they can jolly well live with whatever I want to give them ;)
Click to expand...

And the soundman was there hours before you setting up and will be there tearing down long after you're gone...everyone works hard on most shows to make them come off. Even a house gig is rarely a walk-away for the crew.

Your attitude has evolved through years of trial and error, a solid fundamental technical knowledge of the equipment and a clear idea of what you want to sound like. You KNOW you're sending to FOH a signal any decent soundman can work with. I bet that most soundmen you argue with have shut up by the time sound check is done, no?
 
#6
jeff arddun said:
And the soundman was there hours before you setting up and will be there tearing down long after you're gone...everyone works hard on most shows to make them come off. Even a house gig is rarely a walk-away for the crew.
Click to expand...
They all get paid better than I do, Jeff, so I'm resentful ;)

Your attitude has evolved through years of trial and error, a solid fundamental technical knowledge of the equipment and a clear idea of what you want to sound like. You KNOW you're sending to FOH a signal any decent soundman can work with. I bet that most soundmen you argue with have shut up by the time sound check is done, no?
Click to expand...
Yeah, but why argue with me in the first place? I'm there to have fun, and never go out of my way to make their job hard. I just want my sound reproduced my way, that's all. Most people get it. A small handful don't. They seem to think I really want to sound like Marcus Miller. I will never understand it.
 
#7
I run a Stingray into a Tech 21 Landmark 300, and the majority of my tone sculpting is done on the Tech 21 (mainly some drive and a little flavor). The DI on that head is post EQ, so the feed I send FOH is exactly what I hear on stage.

The reason I mention this at all is that once, during a multi band event where we only had line checks, the sound tech unplugged the DI from the amp head and snuck in a DI box when I was helping set up drums.

I thought something wasn't quite right, but it wasn't until I tore down my rig (and later heard the recordings) that I realized what a HUGE difference it made.

Long story short; to each their own, but I know what bass tone works with my band, and the sound tech doesn't. I'm all for making changes if they affect the house mix, but I'm a big fan of post EQ DI.
 
#9
To get the tone I have on stage, I would have to do two channels. One with an Audix D4 on my cab and a direct signal (100% clean) on the JDI. The amp on stage is a Carvin BX1200 and is mainly set so I can hear myself on stage. There is not a lot of low end coming from it and it is mostly low mids, growly mids and clarity around 2khz. Sound guys typically give me a grand total of 30 seconds (if I am lucky) to check out my bass tone. Doing two signals is not going to happen at most shows. It happened twice for me though, once at a festival and once at a really nice bar. Both events the sound guys really listened to my distortion tone and the clean tone separately. A whole 3 minutes of constant playing and then we ran a song as a band! Woo!

I am still having issues with being too close to the sub woofers at shows and can never get away from them. I am wireless and like to interact with the band mates. And many of the shows have the subs within feet of the stage. I always hear low end! So taking out low end from my stage rig is always going to happen so I can hear my notes. Miking the rig will result in an ugly bass tone. Mix ugly with a clean DI and you might get somewhere......

A large percentage of my bass tone is my Spector 5 string and my hands. The Carvin and DNA 210 are a good combination of clarity, midrange presence, and solid low end. It feels like I am hearing my bass and not the special tone of the cab/amp. Of course I am losing some of the edginess of my cabinet, but as long as the sound guy does not suck out the 200-800hz range heavily, I will sound pretty good out front. At least I hope I will. We don't make enough money to afford a sound man. Then again, we do not want to pay one.
 
#14
Coming from a bass player and a SOUND GUY I have to chime in, you're all right to a degree.

1st There are sound guys that don't know their heads from their tails when it comes to audio. I know and understand that, I have played on many a stage with inferior a sound guy at the helm.

2nd if you try to send pre eq'd signal to the mains you COULD be hurting your tone in the house
If you over Eq in the low end you might wind up destroying the mix, it's another thing to add a little edge or distortion to your sound pre mix but to obliterate your tone with sub octave low end just makes you sound like mudd,

I had a guy show up with a sans amp DI and insisted on using it for the PA, I was going through my Radial DI phase and was semi reluctant, but I own a sans amp and love the crap out of it! So I plugged in and sent him 48v phantom power so he didn't run down a battery. I was really impressed with his tone and timber through the PA all night! He had just enough tube breakup going to compliment his band's sound. Thumbs up to the good ole sans amp!

On the flip side I had a player show up with two really nice Laklands and going through a Line 6 floor pod, he wanted me to DI from the pod post effect and Eq. :( I got it going and all I had was mudd, it was horrible, so I leveled with him, he was pretty excited to work with me since I was a bass player ;).

So we DI'd his bass, pre line 6, and I mic'd his amp to capture the character he was hearing (wanted to hear) Sounded amazing all night!

So my advice?

If you are sending character via a DI with Eq send a decently flat tone and a LITTLE tube character is great to work in here too,
If you have effects or even a vintage amp/cab setup a great mic/DI combo is hard to replace.

Don't forget your bass has most of the character in your entire signal chain. Unless of course you have a killer rig or vintage tone machine

My general rule of thumb

Active Bass = Passive DI
Passive Bass = Active DI

Mic when and if necessary

My rigs: (to the PA)

77 SVT > 70's Ampeg 810
DI: Ampeg SVT DI
MIC: Shure KSM 27

Eden Navigator > DI Out Pre Eq (never mic'd it but don't put it past me!!!)
usually QSC PLX 3402 just got an Eden power amp a while back
2 Eden 410XLT's

Euphonic Audio iAMP 800 > DI Out Pre Eq (prob will never mic it sounds too good standalone)
2 CXL 112's

DI pre Eq > Ampeg B2
Ampeg Classic 4-8 and 115 cabs

AER Amp one 110 > DI out pre Eq (never mic'd it but don't put it past me!!!)

Sans Amp > DI out Post Eq
Into ear rig normally... either that or insert amp of choice
 
#15
Gearhead17 said:
Am I crazy?
Click to expand...

Not at all , I would say the opposite !


Sleeping Giant said:
If you give them a pre eq DI feed then they will not get any bass sound that is unique to you. Your sound and your band's sound will lack your personality and this can make the band sound less like your band and more like what the engineer likes.
Click to expand...
Since when a bass sound doesn't have a personality ?

When I listen to Jaco's work with Joni Mitchell , bass straight to the board , I recognise Jaco's personality and his sound.
There is no amp involved.And these albums are timeless master pieces.
There are millions other example of bass straight to board wich sounds amazing.

Sleeping Giant said:
And who says what the engineer likes is what you do?
Click to expand...
Do you trust your drummer ?
Is he gonna groove correctly the next show ?
Is he gonna tune his drum ?

It's all a question of trust.

If you don't trust soundmans , hire one you trust or do the mix yourself.

If you are in a festival and the soundman is a paid professional , chances are he's probably as good at his job than you are to yours , whatever your job is. ;)
 
#16
I play as well as run sound (my degree is in audio), so I'm pretty experienced on both sides.

What I've found works for me is to have a sort of large pedalboard. I get my tone just like I want before it hits the DI. I let the soundguy know this, so that he can just adjust for the room. Most of the time they don't do anything to it. Then I'm free to set my amp for what's best on stage without screwing up FOH. It works for me.

I also run sound from the stage at a good number of my gigs, so I know just how helpful it can be to adjust things pre and post DI.
 
#17
Sleeping Giant said:
And who says what the engineer likes is what you do?
Click to expand...

Every band has a certain signature in their sound. And that often translates to the house, your strengths will shine and your weaknesses will be lost in the mix, your individual tone characteristics will add to the mix as well

Weak guitar player? Stronger vocal, bass, and drums in the mix

Weak drummer? Stronger vocals, guitars and bass in the mix

Weak vocals? Well you get the picture....

I know if I'm mixing I clean up the low end on most instruments and make a few gentle cuts so the instruments compliment one another and I always achieve a balance in the mix pretty easily.
 
#18
Sleeping Giant said:
If you give them a pre eq DI feed then they will not get any bass sound that is unique to you. Your sound and your band's sound will lack your personality and this can make the band sound less like your band and more like what the engineer likes.
Click to expand...

Every bass and every player has a sound that is unique, there is a reason you're playing the bass you have right? Mild Eq can contribute to your tone but most like can get in the way of many competent sound guys,

I find It best to carry my top gear along incase they insist on plugging me into a Rapco DI. In such a case I'll pull out my Radial, or Ampeg SVT DI, plus I always have my sans amp! Lol!

If they're mic'ing my cab, which never happens and use a peavey 22 I'll rip out my Shure KSM 27 (that mic sounds great on anything!)

Great gear goes a long way, strategic Eq to the house may serve you well if used sparingly, but GEAR always before massive EQ ego's
 
#20
lowfreq33 said:
I play as well as run sound (my degree is in audio), so I'm pretty experienced on both sides.

What I've found works for me is to have a sort of large pedalboard. I get my tone just like I want before it hits the DI. I let the soundguy know this, so that he can just adjust for the room. Most of the time they don't do anything to it. Then I'm free to set my amp for what's best on stage without screwing up FOH. It works for me.

I also run sound from the stage at a good number of my gigs, so I know just how helpful it can be to adjust things pre and post DI.
Click to expand...


My goal is to send a relatively flat signal, it will have EQ, but +-2 or 3db nothing drastic.

Maybe even some character via comp or slight "tube" distortion
 

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