I think I stop believing in expensive basses!

[claytitan]

I guess I'm just way too practical to spend $10,000 or even $4,000 on a bass regardless of the build. I start thinking about what else could be done with the money, investing, saving for rainy day, home improvement, gifts for my wife and children, etc.

Maybe if I got paid well over 6 figures for playing the instrument I would do it. Otherwise to me that would be a very expensive hobby I personally can't justify.

The location of the builder is something to think about. A builder in the Northeast or west coast in the US is going to have far more overhead due to taxes, regulations and higher labor cost. They could have a higher price to quality ratio. Generalizing, you should be able to get better deals from a vendor in Texas, Tennessee or Florida for example. That said Gibson is in Tennessee and their stuff is way overpriced IMO.

 

[Hankenstein]

Munji's basses look great, but are not at all what I'm looking for in a bass either.

You've nailed it. If it's not what you are looking for, it doesn't matter.

I have several high-end basses and a few that are not. I love all of them, that's why I keep them, but nothing I've ever played plays like my Foderas. If it's not what you need in a bass, it's not what you need.

I know a lot of great players that won't play anything but Fender P basses.

 

[chadhargis]

I love this thread. It's sort of like politics. You have liberals on one side and conservatives on the other and somewhere in between lies the truth.

I do believe that craftsmanship, superior quality control, premium components, and carefully selected materials make a difference. But there is a point where you reach the law of diminishing return.

Yes...a Ferrari is MUCH better than a Yugo. That's a given. But most Ferrari owners don't ever have the opportunity or skill to push their car to it's limits. Would they be able to achieve the same results in a BMW M5 or a Corvette Z06 for a fraction of the money? Sure they would. But sometimes you just want a Ferrari because, by golly, it's a damned Ferrari. It's awesome! It's not always about performance. Sometimes it's about having what you want.

I don't think it makes sense to compare a SX to a Fodera, that's just crazy. But could a great player get great tone from a Sadowsky Metro, Lakland Skyline, G&L, Music Man, Lull, etc? Sure they could, and for a lot less than $6000.

So when you compare ONLY performance (playability, tone, feel, etc), where does the law of diminishing return kick in? Is it at $1000? $2000?

In my experience (which admittedly is VERY limited), the magic number appears to be about $1200. I can buy a really nice mass produced instrument for $1200-$1500 that would be all I'd ever need. I've had the opportunity to noodle on Victor Wooten's Yin Yang, and WOW...what a fantastic bass. The action was crazy low and it played like butter (thanks in part to the very light gauge strings he had on it), then I got the opportunity to play Brian Bellar's Lull's. Again, crazy good basses. As good as the Fodera? I can't say, didn't get to A/B them, but both were excellent. Then I got a chance to play Brian Bromberg's Signature Carvin. I was completely blown away at how good that bass was. Played like butter and sounded great...for $1200 brand new.

I've owned a Squire CV Jazz, and for $300 it is a damn fine bass, but I won't try to kid anyone and tell them it is just as good as a $6000 Fodera....it's not.

In the end it comes down to the players ability to utilize the subtle differences. You could give me the fastest MotoGP bike on the paddock and I won't be as fast as a better rider on a slower bike. You can't buy skill. But having a nice piece of equipment can make you a better player by giving you a bass you love playing and can't put down. For some, that's an SX for others that's a Sadowsky, Fender, Fodera, etc.

Different strokes for different folks.

That said, if I ever win the lottery, I'll be flying up to NYC and visiting Fodera to design my custom bass, then I'll head over to the Ferrari dealership and drive home in my new car.

 

[spade2you]

I love this thread. It's sort of like politics. You have liberals on one side and conservatives on the other and somewhere in between lies the truth.

True. In a way, it's like shoes. 99% of the time, ya say they're just shoes. Find someone who goes on really long hikes and they pay attention to their hiking boots and are willing to spend extra. Runners also pay attention. When you do something a LOT, the little things start to add up quick. Then ya have women buying frilly and totally impractical shoes and all bets are off.

 

[nickbass79]

True. In a way, it's like shoes. 99% of the time, ya say they're just shoes. Find someone who goes on really long hikes and they pay attention to their hiking boots and are willing to spend extra. Runners also pay attention. When you do something a LOT, the little things start to add up quick. Then ya have women buying frilly and totally impractical shoes and all bets are off.

The best analogy on this thread so far!

 

[Harpo61]

I love this thread. It's sort of like politics. You have liberals on one side and conservatives on the other and somewhere in between lies the truth.

I do believe that craftsmanship, superior quality control, premium components, and carefully selected materials make a difference. But there is a point where you reach the law of diminishing return.

Yes...a Ferrari is MUCH better than a Yugo. That's a given. But most Ferrari owners don't ever have the opportunity or skill to push their car to it's limits. Would they be able to achieve the same results in a BMW M5 or a Corvette Z06 for a fraction of the money? Sure they would. But sometimes you just want a Ferrari because, by golly, it's a damned Ferrari. It's awesome! It's not always about performance. Sometimes it's about having what you want.

I don't think it makes sense to compare a SX to a Fodera, that's just crazy. But could a great player get great tone from a Sadowsky Metro, Lakland Skyline, G&L, Music Man, Lull, etc? Sure they could, and for a lot less than $6000.

So when you compare ONLY performance (playability, tone, feel, etc), where does the law of diminishing return kick in? Is it at $1000? $2000?

In my experience (which admittedly is VERY limited), the magic number appears to be about $1200. I can buy a really nice mass produced instrument for $1200-$1500 that would be all I'd ever need. I've had the opportunity to noodle on Victor Wooten's Yin Yang, and WOW...what a fantastic bass. The action was crazy low and it played like butter (thanks in part to the very light gauge strings he had on it), then I got the opportunity to play Brian Bellar's Lull's. Again, crazy good basses. As good as the Fodera? I can't say, didn't get to A/B them, but both were excellent. Then I got a chance to play Brian Bromberg's Signature Carvin. I was completely blown away at how good that bass was. Played like butter and sounded great...for $1200 brand new.

I've owned a Squire CV Jazz, and for $300 it is a damn fine bass, but I won't try to kid anyone and tell them it is just as good as a $6000 Fodera....it's not.

In the end it comes down to the players ability to utilize the subtle differences. You could give me the fastest MotoGP bike on the paddock and I won't be as fast as a better rider on a slower bike. You can't buy skill. But having a nice piece of equipment can make you a better player by giving you a bass you love playing and can't put down. For some, that's an SX for others that's a Sadowsky, Fender, Fodera, etc.

Different strokes for different folks.

That said, if I ever win the lottery, I'll be flying up to NYC and visiting Fodera to design my custom bass, then I'll head over to the Ferrari dealership and drive home in my new car.

You took the words right out my mouth and I also played Victors Yin Yang last year at Victors place during the Jam weekend .
And do you know all those Fodera players loved my Fender 70's FSR Jazz Bass and much as love it if my wife said I don't care how much it cost go order yourself a Fodera I would do it a NY minute.

 

[lucas vigor]

Yes...a Ferrari is MUCH better than a Yugo. That's a given. But most Ferrari owners don't ever have the opportunity or skill to push their car to it's limits. Would they be able to achieve the same results in a BMW M5 or a Corvette Z06 for a fraction of the money? Sure they would. I don't think it makes sense to compare a SX to a Fodera, that's just crazy. But could a great player get great tone from a Sadowsky Metro, Lakland Skyline, G&L, Music Man, Lull, etc? Sure they could, and for a lot less than $6000.

So when you compare ONLY performance (playability, tone, feel, etc), where does the law of diminishing return kick in? Is it at $1000? $2000?

In my experience (which admittedly is VERY limited), the magic number appears to be about $1200. I can buy a really nice mass produced instrument for $1200-$1500 that would be all I'd ever need. I've had the opportunity to noodle on Victor Wooten's Yin Yang, and WOW...what a fantastic bass. The action was crazy low and it played like butter (thanks in part to the very light gauge strings he had on it), then I got the opportunity to play Brian Bellar's Lull's. Again, crazy good basses. As good as the Fodera? I can't say, didn't get to A/B them, but both were excellent. Then I got a chance to play Brian Bromberg's Signature Carvin. I was completely blown away at how good that bass was. Played like butter and sounded great...for $1200 brand new.

I've owned a Squire CV Jazz, and for $300 it is a damn fine bass, but I won't try to kid anyone and tell them it is just as good as a $6000 Fodera....it's not.

In the end it comes down to the players ability to utilize the subtle differences. You could give me the fastest MotoGP bike on the paddock and I won't be as fast as a better rider on a slower bike. You can't buy skill. But having a nice piece of equipment can make you a better player by giving you a bass you love playing and can't put down. For some, that's an SX for others that's a Sadowsky, Fender, Fodera, etc.

Different strokes for different folks.

That said, if I ever win the lottery, I'll be flying up to NYC and visiting Fodera to design my custom bass, then I'll head over to the Ferrari dealership and drive home in my new car.

You compare the ferrari driving experience to that of a BMW or a vette...I can totally buy that argument...what I cannot buy is people's insistence that the extreme low-end chinese bass that costs 180 dollars can ever be as excellent as a fodera, let alone a sadowsky...and more important, cannot SOUND the same. But it has been claimed before, right here on TB!

 

[NickyBass]

I don't buy the car analogy. Most of us don't drive 8-10 hours a day or get hired based on the way we drive. Plus, we're talking about $250k cars and $5k basses.

 

[superdick2112]

I love this thread. It's sort of like politics. You have liberals on one side and conservatives on the other and somewhere in between lies the truth.

I do believe that craftsmanship, superior quality control, premium components, and carefully selected materials make a difference. But there is a point where you reach the law of diminishing return.

Yes...a Ferrari is MUCH better than a Yugo. That's a given. But most Ferrari owners don't ever have the opportunity or skill to push their car to it's limits. Would they be able to achieve the same results in a BMW M5 or a Corvette Z06 for a fraction of the money? Sure they would. But sometimes you just want a Ferrari because, by golly, it's a damned Ferrari. It's awesome! It's not always about performance. Sometimes it's about having what you want.

I don't think it makes sense to compare a SX to a Fodera, that's just crazy. But could a great player get great tone from a Sadowsky Metro, Lakland Skyline, G&L, Music Man, Lull, etc? Sure they could, and for a lot less than $6000.

So when you compare ONLY performance (playability, tone, feel, etc), where does the law of diminishing return kick in? Is it at $1000? $2000?

In my experience (which admittedly is VERY limited), the magic number appears to be about $1200. I can buy a really nice mass produced instrument for $1200-$1500 that would be all I'd ever need. I've had the opportunity to noodle on Victor Wooten's Yin Yang, and WOW...what a fantastic bass. The action was crazy low and it played like butter (thanks in part to the very light gauge strings he had on it), then I got the opportunity to play Brian Bellar's Lull's. Again, crazy good basses. As good as the Fodera? I can't say, didn't get to A/B them, but both were excellent. Then I got a chance to play Brian Bromberg's Signature Carvin. I was completely blown away at how good that bass was. Played like butter and sounded great...for $1200 brand new.

I've owned a Squire CV Jazz, and for $300 it is a damn fine bass, but I won't try to kid anyone and tell them it is just as good as a $6000 Fodera....it's not.

In the end it comes down to the players ability to utilize the subtle differences. You could give me the fastest MotoGP bike on the paddock and I won't be as fast as a better rider on a slower bike. You can't buy skill. But having a nice piece of equipment can make you a better player by giving you a bass you love playing and can't put down. For some, that's an SX for others that's a Sadowsky, Fender, Fodera, etc.

Different strokes for different folks.

That said, if I ever win the lottery, I'll be flying up to NYC and visiting Fodera to design my custom bass, then I'll head over to the Ferrari dealership and drive home in my new car.

Perfect summary, both of this thread and of the price vs. performance factor of expensive vs. inexpensive basses.
My two Spector Euro basses (BMWs, if you will..) are fantastic instruments, as is my USA Spector NS4 (my Ferrari). Is the NS4 worth 2.5x as much as the Euros? Does it play & sound 2.5x better?
The answer is No.
Was it worth it to me simply because I appreciate the quality, craftsmanship, beauty and tone?
Damn right it was...

 

[spade2you]

I don't buy the car analogy. Most of us don't drive 8-10 hours a day or get hired based on the way we drive. Plus, we're talking about $250k cars and $5k basses.

Even then, cars serve finite ranges of purposes. You're not going to use a Ferrari to plow snow. Not gonna take a family of 4 to grandma's house on a crotch rocket. Not going to get the maximum efficenciy of driving a Ford F350 for your average urban dweller taking paved roads the entire way. Etc.

 

[azureblue]

You compare the ferrari driving experience to that of a BMW or a vette...I can totally buy that argument...what I cannot buy is people's insistence that the extreme low-end chinese bass that costs 180 dollars can ever be as excellent as a fodera, let alone a sadowsky...and more important, cannot SOUND the same. But it has been claimed before, right here on TB!

Or, to relate from personal experience, the woman who hit it big in LA and bought a Porsche 930T convertible and used it to run around Brentwood and Beverly Hills.

I have owned custom basses, pricy things, that I worried about damaging or theft. And when I took it out to play, I noticed players spent more time talking to me about the bass (es) than the music. Big enlightenment = what is most important here? I had a Single coil P Bass, in the S/N 4xx range, that I loved, too. It had a great sound, a neck like a bat, and I was afraid of loss or damage to it, too. And one day I took a look at what I really wanted in a bass, from a practical viewpoint, and settled on what I have now, and it is not irreplaceable, and it does what I want it to do. I am not one who puts a premium on the "look" of the bass anymore - I just want it to sound and play to my likes, with a minimum of problems or concerns. I do not look at the price tag any more, when I try out a bass - I buy a bass to fit my needs, that will not distract me from the music.

 

[MVPBASS]

I don't buy the car analogy. Most of us don't drive 8-10 hours a day or get hired based on the way we drive. Plus, we're talking about $250k cars and $5k basses.

The only way to use the car analogy is to look at police cars, they drive 24 hours a day, they need precision, speed, etc. Are they spending money on cars or buying honda civics?

 

[metron]

Meh... Everyone has opinions and they are entitled to that. They can be wrong but its still acceptable.

 

[phillybass101]

If my livelyhood and reptutation depended upon it I'd have the best that money, and experience, and connections could buy. Even at my level of weekend warrior bar/grill and weddings type of gigs your reputation means something. i didn't know it until later but a drummer I played with put something about me on his facebook page. One of the items was that I had good equipment. The more you get out there, and the better you get, other things come into play. I often get calls to fill in. I'm on time, I don;t mind practicing, I'm easy to get along with, and I have decent equipment. I don't have the very best, but it's not crappy. My standard is a Geddy Lee Jazz Bass and a Brubaker MJX-5, an older (made in England) Trace Elliot gpsm 7 300 Bass Head and an Eden 2x12 cab. I'm working on a new rig that will consist of a PUMA 500 Bass head, Glasstone Lil G 2x12 cab, and Brubaker Brute Single Cut 5. I believe you should put your money into your amp and speaker cabs first, then get the killer axe.

 

[lomo]

Agree. Diminishing returns, period. Pick your sweet spot on the curve and be happy.IMO the sonic returns diminish a lot earlier than the ergonomic ones. I've owned 5K basses and 300 dollar basses. The difference in feel and playability between a stock Fender and my Elrick is very large (to me), but the tonal differences are, IMHO, ridiulously exaggerated by many. I believe that in a blind test, especially in a mix, that there is no meaningful correlation between price and subjective quality of sound between basses in the 1K range and those costing faaaaaar more, assuming the basses are well intonated and adjusted. So many people believe there is, but I don't see many listening blindly. Many rave about the recorded tone on a 30 year-old track cut with a scrapwood Fender and then think they can hear the difference in tone between an ash bass and an alder bass. I'm not buying. YMMV

I love this thread. It's sort of like politics. You have liberals on one side and conservatives on the other and somewhere in between lies the truth.

I do believe that craftsmanship, superior quality control, premium components, and carefully selected materials make a difference. But there is a point where you reach the law of diminishing return.

Yes...a Ferrari is MUCH better than a Yugo. That's a given. But most Ferrari owners don't ever have the opportunity or skill to push their car to it's limits. Would they be able to achieve the same results in a BMW M5 or a Corvette Z06 for a fraction of the money? Sure they would. But sometimes you just want a Ferrari because, by golly, it's a damned Ferrari. It's awesome! It's not always about performance. Sometimes it's about having what you want.

I don't think it makes sense to compare a SX to a Fodera, that's just crazy. But could a great player get great tone from a Sadowsky Metro, Lakland Skyline, G&L, Music Man, Lull, etc? Sure they could, and for a lot less than $6000.

So when you compare ONLY performance (playability, tone, feel, etc), where does the law of diminishing return kick in? Is it at $1000? $2000?

In my experience (which admittedly is VERY limited), the magic number appears to be about $1200. I can buy a really nice mass produced instrument for $1200-$1500 that would be all I'd ever need. I've had the opportunity to noodle on Victor Wooten's Yin Yang, and WOW...what a fantastic bass. The action was crazy low and it played like butter (thanks in part to the very light gauge strings he had on it), then I got the opportunity to play Brian Bellar's Lull's. Again, crazy good basses. As good as the Fodera? I can't say, didn't get to A/B them, but both were excellent. Then I got a chance to play Brian Bromberg's Signature Carvin. I was completely blown away at how good that bass was. Played like butter and sounded great...for $1200 brand new.

I've owned a Squire CV Jazz, and for $300 it is a damn fine bass, but I won't try to kid anyone and tell them it is just as good as a $6000 Fodera....it's not.

In the end it comes down to the players ability to utilize the subtle differences. You could give me the fastest MotoGP bike on the paddock and I won't be as fast as a better rider on a slower bike. You can't buy skill. But having a nice piece of equipment can make you a better player by giving you a bass you love playing and can't put down. For some, that's an SX for others that's a Sadowsky, Fender, Fodera, etc.

Different strokes for different folks.

That said, if I ever win the lottery, I'll be flying up to NYC and visiting Fodera to design my custom bass, then I'll head over to the Ferrari dealership and drive home in my new car.

 

[lucas vigor]

Most of you seem to have missed my point completely. Nowhere did I say that you have to play a 4000+ Fodera, and that is the only bass that sounds good.

I merely pointed out that a 180 dollar budget bass from China cannot be compared to a 3000 dollar bass, and will never sound or play as well.

believe what you want. I went back and re-read some of the SX threads....and for the most part, a lot of the players were amatuers or weekend warriors who probably could not hear or feel any real difference. The others are just people who refuse to admit that they get a preverse pleasure in rocking the budget bass....because they think it says something about who they are an their awesome ability to make anything sound good.

 

[dvh]

Most of you seem to have missed my point completely. Nowhere did I say that you have to play a 4000+ Fodera, and that is the only bass that sounds good.

I merely pointed out that a 180 dollar budget bass from China cannot be compared to a 3000 dollar bass, and will never sound or play as well.

I have to ask: in a live situation would you be able to pick out the Fodera from the SX (with your eyes closed)?

Further, how many others in the audience could tell or would even bother to care?

"Sound" is such a moving target and subjective. The Fodera will almost certainly play better, agreed. But the "sound" claim cannot be proved superior.

That said I fully appreciate that for tone, we have to please ourselves as players. Few outsiders care about it, though.

 

[iJazz]

I merely pointed out that a 180 dollar budget bass from China cannot be compared to a 3000 dollar bass, and will never sound or play as well.

Never? Really...?

Last week I was in a local music store when a fellow came in to buy a bass for his son. He was visiting the kid here in Wi, in from touring with a major act in Europe. He picked a Starcaster off the rack, plugged in and tore the place up. After about 5 minutes his comment was, "There's something just a bit off here." The store owner checked the intonation, gave it back, and the guy blew the roof off the joint. His playing easily matched any sound clip I've heard here on TB. ANY clip by any player. Barely touching a knob he must have pulled half-a-dozen classic tones out of that less than $200 Jazz bass.

As I left, the last words I heard were "So how much do you really sell these for?"

iJazz - Never is a very long time.

 

[NickyBass]

Never? Really...?

Last week I was in a local music store when a fellow came in to buy a bass for his son. He was visiting the kid here in Wi, in from touring with a major act in Europe. He picked a Starcaster off the rack, plugged in and tore the place up. After about 5 minutes his comment was, "There's something just a bit off here." The store owner checked the intonation, gave it back, and the guy blew the roof off the joint. His playing easily matched any sound clip I've heard here on TB. ANY clip by any player. Barely touching a knob he must have pulled half-a-dozen classic tones out of that less than $200 Jazz bass.

As I left, the last words I heard were "So how much do you really sell these for?"

iJazz - Never is a very long time.

Noone is saying that you can't play well on a $200 instrument. Of course you can. Many people do. Even guys who play high end basses have 'off the rack basses' for when needed.

btw, did he play a $3k instrument after that? Hearing something in person and hearing something compressed on youtube through computer speakers are two different things.

 

[lucas vigor]

I have to ask: in a live situation would you be able to pick out the Fodera from the SX (with your eyes closed)?Further, how many others in the audience could tell or would even bother to care?

"Sound" is such a moving target and subjective. The Fodera will almost certainly play better, agreed. But the "sound" claim cannot be proved superior.

That said I fully appreciate that for tone, we have to please ourselves as players. Few outsiders care about it, though.

Yes. I have been playing bass for a long time.

And while it is true few laypeople can hear any difference, it is equally true there are a lot of musicians who cannot hear a difference, or don't care. Plus, you have the context to worry about. In a loud punk band, with the blanketing effect of square wave distortion from guitars and crashing cymbals...subleties of tone are very much lost in translation...so for those players, it really does not matter. Your amp probably matters more in that context...

but try using your SX or Squire on the next yellowjacket's album and see where it gets you. There is a good reason Jimmy haslip uses the basses he uses.