I thought playing fretless was easy!

[pnchad]

To put it in perspective here - the most potentially 'perfectly' tuned instrument is a non-stopped one such as a trombone or a cello or a FRETLESS bass. That's because the player can adapt these tiny changes in the harmonic content as they play and as classical & jazzers do all the time

So, when you go for a note on your fretless bass dont't be satisfied by anything other than how the note sounds I the context of the music - does it sound good? I always adjust slightly as a FL player by ear with the slightest roll of my finger into the. 'Sweet spot'

Seriously, everyone who wants to play FL should first have to watch 20 hrs of great cello players on YouTube - you will sublimininally adopt their left hand fingering technics - extremely useful

 

[bucephylus]

Wow. I'm virtually speechless. Would you believe that in all my days of playing, I never realized that fretting between the frets is actually commonplace? I always assumed it was just a rookie mistake, one that nearly all players eventually grow out of. No, I never paid close enough attention to Chuck Rainey's or Louis Johnson's technique to even notice.

I think this falls into the same category as guitarists, like Jeff Beck, who do things like palm the neck or wrap their thumbs over the top side of the board. Of course, the fact that they have such bad technique doesn't mean they're bad players. Sometimes it just means they're such great players that they can excel...in spite of bad technique.

MM

This topic has been so passionately debated over the years here on TB, and it took me a long time to understand why different players were seeing it so differently. I share your reaction, but at least it's good to understand why things are the way they are. Hopefully that's enough.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

One thing to avoid is playing a fretted bass with one scale length then picking up a fretless with a slightly different one. An example would be 34" and 33 1/4". You get used to the spacing for where the notes are on the fretted bass, but where you think they should be and where they actually are on the fretless are just enough off to really screw you up.

Yeah that's a thing to have in mind too. My Adamovic is a 34,5" scale and it's more comfortable to play for me than a regular 34" scale. The yamaha is a regular 34" scale. While fretted i can switch ok between them. Now the issue comes what scale fretlss i have to look for. For me that's an easy one: Adamovic eclipse fretless 34,5" scale. The hard part is when I open up the wallet and says no way.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Yes. I had two Ken Bebensee 6 string fretless basses that were 35.25" scale which were used for gigging when I was younger. Later I got a Status Graphite 6 string fretless and a Jazz 4 string fretless, both 34" scale. Those ended being used more often and I would practice a lot with the KBs to stretch out my fingers and when it came time to gig the shorter 34" scale basses seemed so much easier to play. I sold the two KBs not too long ago and just acquired a Status Graphite 5 string fretless with 32" scale. As jamro217 points out, things get kind of weird with the muscle memory and beyond the 12th fret things get kinda tight. But I am really enjoying the shorter scale and its been a lot easier on my aging hands. I've always like the cleaner look of no lines.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Nice!

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

After you get confident on a fretless, there's a good chance you'll start GASsing for an upright...

I am already gasing for an upright. I even have the brand and model choosen and the price on it. I'm going to buy directly from the builder (a romanian Reghin Hora upright).

Actually my first contact with th low end world was on the upright but I was young and foolish as I was thimking playing an upright isn't cool. Stupid me

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Fretless and proper intonation is a never ending task.
Use it or lose it. Gonna take longer than 3 days.

That is for sure!

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Ignorance is bliss.. You think that you know stuff but then you realize you dont even know what you know, you know?

I know. Lol

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Wow! I go away to sleep and in the morning I wake up with 7 pages on this thread. Cool.

 

[Shardik]

I don't play a lot of fretless, but when I do, I like having the lines...

That's pretty much where I'm at, too. Muscle memory is a great thing... when it works. But as we are organic beings, super accurate muscle memory is difficult to achieve. And if you also need to pay attention to other band members, sing, and sometimes have crescendos in your music where your monitoring is obscured at best, then your hand and fingers may start to drift slightly without you noticing. I can play without looking most of the time, but I really appreciate lined necks for the added visual verification of correct hand and finger placement.

 

[SteveCS]

To put it in perspective here - the most potentially 'perfectly' tuned instrument is a non-stopped one such as a trombone or a cello or a FRETLESS bass. That's because the player can adapt these tiny changes in the harmonic content as they play and as classical & jazzers do all the time

So, when you go for a note on your fretless bass dont't be satisfied by anything other than how the note sounds I the context of the music - does it sound good? I always adjust slightly as a FL player by ear with the slightest roll of my finger into the. 'Sweet spot'

Seriously, everyone who wants to play FL should first have to watch 20 hrs of great cello players on YouTube - you will sublimininally adopt their left hand fingering technics - extremely useful

This is a great conversation to have, and whilst it might be a bit mind-boggling to a novice fretless player, IMO the earlier you know about this stuff the better. Of course knowing about it and assimilating into your playing takes a lot longer, but I can think of many worse burdens to bear.

I have posted many times now on even- vs. just- tempered instruments, and your diagram is a good illustration of this. For anyone in doubt, try comparing some of the higher harmonics (between the 2nd and 4th 'frets') to the fingered note equivalents. Play some chords with fretted notes then with equivalent harmonics. In some keys they will sound OK but in others they will really soar by comparison. Change key and the OK ones will start to sing. Chord voicing with harmonics is more than just note/node selection. The great thing with fretless instruments is that you can adjust intonation to the key which makes the bass really sing, particularly when you get up into the higher registers.

My daughter is a developing cellist and, in addition to getting a buzz from being able to share these things with her, my own playing is benefitting from the opportunity/excuse to spend time re-exploring and having to verbalise this stuff in order to demonstrate it.

 

[DriesG]

With unlined fretless you're forced to use your ears.

So with a lined fretless you don't listen as much as when playing unlined? Oops, I only have a lined fretless, so I think I listen too much to what I'm playing... Ah wait: I'll close my eyes, so I can't see the lines... Feels like playing unlined. , just kidding...
Use whatever you want: nobody can hear the difference between lined and unlined. And, if you can play in between the lines, you could spend some time learning to play on the lines, no? You will sound better - even on a fretted - and your left hand will become more relaxed making things a lot easier. So everything will sound better.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Here is a sample of it! All you hear is a 5 string fretted bass, djembe, maraca, baby toy and the fretless. Tell me what you think.

Thanks.

 

[bobpond]

Oh great. Now this thread gave me more GAS. My current project is a Warmoth Gecko 5 string build. 35" scale. Fretted. When I start playing this as my main bass I will be FORCED to build another as a fretless so as not to confuse myself further by switching scales as well as fretted to fretless. This is a terrible hardship.

I wonder if that other similar black korina body is still in the showcase...

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Oh great. Now this thread gave me more GAS. My current project is a Warmoth Gecko 5 string build. 35" scale. Fretted. When I start playing this as my main bass I will be FORCED to build another as a fretless so as not to confuse myself further by switching scales as well as fretted to fretless. This is a terrible hardship.

I wonder if that other similar black korina body is still in the showcase...

Glad I could be of any help!

 

[bobpond]

Here is a sample of it! All you hear is a 5 string fretted bass, djembe, maraca, baby toy and the fretless. Tell me what you think.

Thanks.

I like where that's going. Sounds kind of Celtic. I would probably do a little less portamento, maybe not every time on the ascending line that starts the phrase, but that's just my taste. There are a lot of new "toys" to play with on fretless and one needs to learn when and how much to play with them.

Speaking of toys...

Did you know that on a fretless you can slide harmonics? They don't get cancelled out like on a fretted so you can play the harmonic, press on the string and move that pitch. This is the toy I play with too much.

Since you're emphasizing the fretless sound, vibrato might be good too. As someone else posted, the way you see a cellist do it, not with string bending.

Nice work, thanks for posting the sample.

 

[neckdive]

Here is a sample of it! All you hear is a 5 string fretted bass, djembe, maraca, baby toy and the fretless. Tell me what you think.

Thanks.

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing that with us.

I especially liked the background vocals.

 

[jamro217]

Yeah that's a thing to have in mind too. My Adamovic is a 34,5" scale and it's more comfortable to play for me than a regular 34" scale. The yamaha is a regular 34" scale. While fretted i can switch ok between them. Now the issue comes what scale fretlss i have to look for. For me that's an easy one: Adamovic eclipse fretless 34,5" scale. The hard part is when I open up the wallet and says no way.

That's the way it goes. Still trying to decide whether or not to sell my sports car to get up enough cash to buy a Marleaux.

 

[jamro217]

Fretless bass IS easy to play.

Sure, just not well.

 

[bholder]

Wow. I'm virtually speechless. Would you believe that in all my days of playing, I never realized that fretting between the frets is actually commonplace? I always assumed it was just a rookie mistake, one that nearly all players eventually grow out of. No, I never paid close enough attention to Chuck Rainey's or Louis Johnson's technique to even notice.

I think this falls into the same category as guitarists, like Jeff Beck, who do things like palm the neck or wrap their thumbs over the top side of the board. Of course, the fact that they have such bad technique doesn't mean they're bad players. Sometimes it just means they're such great players that they can excel...in spite of bad technique.

MM

My opinion - it's not necessarily "bad technique" if it works for them - they may be blessed with physical characteristics (long, strong fingers, for example) that allow them to use what would be "bad technique" for others not similarly gifted. I mean - look at the pics of Hendrix's hands, man - those fingers let him do things us "more meretals" couldn't even consider.

 

[pingvuiini]

To put it in perspective here - the most potentially 'perfectly' tuned instrument is a non-stopped one such as a trombone or a cello or a FRETLESS bass. That's because the player can adapt these tiny changes in the harmonic content as they play and as classical & jazzers do all the time

So, when you go for a note on your fretless bass dont't be satisfied by anything other than how the note sounds I the context of the music - does it sound good? I always adjust slightly as a FL player by ear with the slightest roll of my finger into the. 'Sweet spot'

Seriously, everyone who wants to play FL should first have to watch 20 hrs of great cello players on YouTube - you will sublimininally adopt their left hand fingering technics - extremely useful

This concept was very helpful during one gig. We played the first 60 minutes of a 75 minute set with no problem. For the finale my guitar player switched to a Flying V he just got and the first song of the finale was War Pigs. If you are familiar with the song it starts off on E in a huge way. Anyways, the Flying V was tuned slightly but noticeably flat and when we hit that first note we all could hear it and my guitar player had this horrified look in his eyes. Luckily I was playing the Bebensee fretless 6 string and I hit the 5th fret position of the low B. When I heard the discord I immediately adjusted and went flat and everything sounded 'in tune'. I had to play the rest of WP and the last two songs slightly flat but if I were playing a fretted bass we would have had to stop and retune, thus wasting playing time.