I thought playing fretless was easy!

[pnchad]

I'm not an experienced fretless player - yet. But I'm getting there.

IME, playing with proper intonation - and this is probably the biggest challenge of all, at least for a novice player - boils down to two things: 1) developing one's ear to a very fine perception of intonation, and 2) developing one's muscle memory; then fusing one to the other.

As to the former, all the standard "develop your ear" advice would apply. As to the latter, it really falls into the "10,000 strokes" category of discipline that pertains to athletes, especially baseball players (batters), golfers, tennis players, etc. whose success at the game consists largely of mastering a particular repetitive physical technique, i.e. "the swing".

The 10,000 strokes reference means that you'll eventually "get there" by practicing proper technique, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...until it becomes practically second nature. That's the power of muscle memory.

Not only does an accomplished fretless player not need to look at the fret lines, he doesn't even need to look at the instrument. By that point, his hands and fingers instinctively know exactly where to go in order to hit the notes that he wants. He doesn't even have to think about it anymore.

MM

Actually it is not 10,000 strokes - the theory is that it takes at least 10,000 hours diligently, at anything, to become 'expert' or to 'master' a subject or a advanced skill (I would call fretless an advanced skill) - that's 5 full years at 40 hours/week - a serious commitment but true

Here's exactly where you need to put your fingers - varies slightly by key/chord - pls be sure to memorize it!!!!

we're having the common fretless thread - lines vs no lines, etc. I have been playing FL for 46 yrs now nearly exclusively - pro for 35 years and prefer lined for a loud stage but have had many of both

It really is in your ears and, just like a cellist or a violinist, your are constantly compensating slightly referencing your ears, the other instruments, etc.

 

[SteveC]

I've owned a lined fretless and unlined fretless. I actually prefer the unlined fretless. I thinK the lines are a bit off putting because I instinctively play 'Between the frets' which is wrong and off tune. With unlined fretless you're forced to use your ears.

I don't have any trouble playing on the lines on my fretless and between the frets on my fretted. I think I probably cheat on the fretted and play closer to the fret.

 

[bholder]

Ignorance is bliss.. You think that you know stuff but then you realize you dont even know what you know, you know?

If ignorance is bliss, I oughtta be a whole lot happier!

 

[Mattrill]

i just threw some thomastiks on a fretless jazz and it sounds cool

 

[radioface]

Fretless bass IS easy to play.

 

[fretless19]

Start with lined, move onto unlined or dark lined, if you like the aesthetic. Play on the line, or on the dot if they are properly located for a fretless. Always make sure you're in tune when you start playing; I know that sounds basic, but we can have a tendency to just pick up and play, or at least I do, and the best thing you can do for your own intonation is playing on a tuned instrument, so you know what it is supposed to sound like. Also, of course you should intonate the bridge with your 12th and 7th and so on. Why wouldn't you?

 

[Fxpmusic]

If I have lines I feel I'm paying too much attention to them instead of just playing... (Just my experience).

I've also noticed that my tuning issues tend to come up when I'm just practicing by myself. Somehow, something kicks in when playing with a band that I just feel it and play in tune.

 

[000_Unknown]

If ignorance is bliss, I oughtta be a whole lot happier!

Perhaps you are too ignorant, even to know the real true happiness that you already possess.

As you are now, so once was I.. and as I am now you too shall be.

 

[bholder]

Perhaps you are too ignorant, even to know the real true happiness that you already possess.

As you are now, so once was I.. and as I am now you too shall be.

That last one reminds me of The Residents' "Mr. Skull".

 

[Dan Knowlton]

This was just TOO hard to resist!

Roscoe SKB custom - unlined maple diamondwood

 

[jeffbassguy]

its ears, position, consistent length of bass strap for me. I make it a point to bring my unlined fretless to band practice just to keep me fresh on playing it in a live setting

 

[Mike Sorr]

I've had a fretless in the arsenal since 1987 and every one I've ever owned had fret lines. Fret lines just make life easier, for me anyway.

 

[Hamish MacCleod]

I find that lower tension strings really help me, currently using TI flats.
Rondo

 

[Mystic Michael]

I don't have any trouble playing on the lines on my fretless and between the frets on my fretted. I think I probably cheat on the fretted and play closer to the fret.

I wonder how many players are under the impression that the optimum place for fretting on a fretted bass is right in the middle of the two frets? Is that what's being implied here?

I hope not. Actually the ideal place on the board for fretting is just before the fret...but as close to being on top of the fret as possible - without going over the other side. Played in that way, you're really not that far away from playing right over the fret line when playing a fretless.

Problem solved.

MM

 

[bucephylus]

I wonder how many players are under the impression that the optimum place for fretting on a fretted bass is right in the middle of the two frets? Is that what's being implied here?

I hope not. Actually the ideal place on the board for fretting is just before the fret...but as close to being on top of the fret as possible - without going over the other side. Played in that way, you're really not that far away from playing right over the fret line when playing a fretless.

Problem solved.

MM

In fact, that is precisely the concept at the root of much of the lines / no lines debate. I 100% agree with what you just said. But, many fine players target the space between the frets. Watch Chuck Rainey or some of Louis Johnson's videos. Too many players use that approach to call it wrong. I remember selling a very fine lined fretless (don't ask) to a good friend, and he couldn't play it at all with the lines for precisely this reason. Blew my mind. Over the years, I have come to just accept it as different strokes for different folks. Better that we understand each other better; don't you think?

 

[bucephylus]

Actually it is not 10,000 strokes - the theory is that it takes at least 10,000 hours diligently, at anything, to become 'expert' or to 'master' a subject or a advanced skill (I would call fretless an advanced skill) - that's 5 full years at 40 hours/week - a serious commitment but true

Here's exactly where you need to put your fingers - varies slightly by key/chord - pls be sure to memorize it!!!!

we're having the common fretless thread - lines vs no lines, etc. I have been playing FL for 46 yrs now nearly exclusively - pro for 35 years and prefer lined for a loud stage but have had many of both

It really is in your ears and, just like a cellist or a violinist, your are constantly compensating slightly referencing your ears, the other instruments, etc.

I like your post; but, please help me understand that diagram. Is that showing tempered scales or something?

 

[zontar]

Fretless was easier than I feared, but I'm glad for the lines--I check them out at the beginning of a song, and when there's a jump in postion--but I also use my ears more than my eyes.

 

[pnchad]

Well you can read all about Western music harmony, temperament, etc.

It's just physics - math - fun stuff - frequencies, overtones, harmonics, - if you're serious it's a study

To make it simple, the frequencies cannot be evenly (Even Temperament) divided in exact segments/percentages and still sound correct to the human ear - in other words ALL tonal instruments that are designed to make playing a series of notes easier for a human require some mechanical compromises in order to do the job 'most of the time'

That includes wind instruments, reed instruments, keyboards (piano is technically a percussion instrument) guitars and their fretted cousins, etc.

My grandfather sold & tuned pianos & organs from the 20s until the 70s. If you've ever watched a piano tuner, they cannot operate by tuner ONLY, they tune to a tuner (old times strobe tuner, now electronic, and then they spend most of their time adjusting certain pitches to be attractively tuned to others - goosing notes a few cents one way or the other - but this must be done by ear - there is no machine that can do this right - you can tune each and every note to perfect tuning on a machine then play a chord and it sounds like crud.

In other words if you have a 'fretted' bass, it is only in general relatively tuned to itself - there is no such thing as perfect tuning across the board and from string to string - only relative relationships

Great guitarists, for instance, hear these tiny differences, but they do and compensate in their playing by goosing a note sharp or flat within a chord as necessary - it's a high level of hearing music

 

[bucephylus]

Well you can read all about Western music harmony, temperament, etc.

It's just physics - math - fun stuff - frequencies, overtones, harmonics, - if you're serious it's a study

To make it simple, the frequencies cannot be evenly (Even Temperament) divided in exact segments/percentages and still sound correct to the human ear - in other words ALL tonal instruments that are designed to make playing a series of notes easier for a human require some mechanical compromises in order to do the job 'most of the time'

That includes wind instruments, reed instruments, keyboards (piano is technically a percussion instrument) guitars and their fretted cousins, etc.

My grandfather sold & tuned pianos & organs from the 20s until the 70s. If you've ever watched a piano tuner, they cannot operate by tuner ONLY, they tune to a tuner (old times strobe tuner, now electronic, and then they spend most of their time adjusting certain pitches to be attractively tuned to others - goosing notes a few cents one way or the other - but this must be done by ear - there is no machine that can do this right - you can tune each and every note to perfect tuning on a machine then play a chord and it sounds like crud.

In other words if you have a 'fretted' bass, it is only in general relatively tuned to itself - there is no such thing as perfect tuning across the board and from string to string - only relative relationships

Great guitarists, for instance, hear these tiny differences, but they do and compensate in their playing by goosing a note sharp or flat within a chord as necessary - it's a high level of hearing music

Thanks. That's what I thought you were showing; just had never seen the diagram before.

 

[Mystic Michael]

In fact, that is precisely the concept at the root of much of the lines / no lines debate. I 100% agree with what you just said. But, many fine players target the space between the frets. Watch Chuck Rainey or some of Louis Johnson's videos. Too many players use that approach to call it wrong. I remember selling a very fine lined fretless (don't ask) to a good friend, and he couldn't play it at all with the lines for precisely this reason. Blew my mind. Over the years, I have come to just accept it as different strokes for different folks. Better that we understand each other better; don't you think?

Wow. I'm virtually speechless. Would you believe that in all my days of playing, I never realized that fretting between the frets is actually commonplace? I always assumed it was just a rookie mistake, one that nearly all players eventually grow out of. No, I never paid close enough attention to Chuck Rainey's or Louis Johnson's technique to even notice.

I think this falls into the same category as guitarists, like Jeff Beck, who do things like palm the neck or wrap their thumbs over the top side of the board. Of course, the fact that they have such bad technique doesn't mean they're bad players. Sometimes it just means they're such great players that they can excel...in spite of bad technique.

MM