I was on modes practices and I discovered....

[Baloo]

I just discovered that there are 2 different group of 6th chords, check this:

This modes have the same 6th degree ( I mean major 6th degree interval from root note):
Ionian (G major 6th)
Dorian (A minor 6th)
Lydian (C major 6th)
Mixolydian (D major 6th)
They are major or minor triad plus major 6th interval.


and
Phrigyam (B minor 6th)
Aeolian (E minor 6th)
Locrian (F# diminished 6th)
are a minor or disminished triad plus minor 6th interval.


OK, this is what I discovered, but I don't know if this is good, bad or what? I don't know what can I learn about those two group of 6th's, anyone here can give us some help?

 

[Jazzin']

i really gotta remeber the names of all these modes. i can't remember em.

 

[Baloo]

Ok no problem

 

[LM Bass]

Good thinking on your analysis, Baloo.

For what it's worth, the minor 6 chord symbol generates a minor triad with a MAJOR 6th. So, in C major: the Dm6 will work. The Phrygian scale would generate an E min b6 chord, on the Aeolian mode you would get an A min b6 chord. The b6 is usually an "Avoid" note on these minor triads, as it tends to sound like the root, making the chord into a major 7th chord in first inversion. Good luck with your theory work, you're off to a good start.
LM

 

[Gard]

Baloo -

Good find, but it's even cooler to take it a bit further!

If we work with C major, and stack thirds for each mode we get this -

Ionian: C E G B D F A, or Cmaj13 chord

Dorian: D F A C E G B, or Dmin13#11 chord

Phrygian: E G B D F A C, or Emin13b9 chord

Lydian: F A C E G B D, or Fmaj13#11 chord

Mixolydian: G B D F A C E, or G13

Aeolian: A C E G B D F, or Amin13

Locrian: B D F A C E G, or Bmin13b5,b9

Transposing to other keys works just like any other set of modes, the mode name relates directly to the chord name. Helps you figure out how to work over chords that appear to be pretty weird, but end up being diatonic! (I mean, c'mon, Bmin13b5, b9 is DIATONIC?!?! YUP!!!! )

...I hope that all made some sense...

 

[LM Bass]

Thanks for more input Gard.
(One niggle I have, A min 13 would imply a major sixth, or F#)

Jazz theory is still trying to sort itself out, and so much terminology is at odds re: chord nomenclature. There are lots of good links out there, including musictheory.net for people starting out on the road to more theoretical understanding.

It is worth having a game plan, when going after jazz harmony. For instance, I get a lot of students that want to understand the superlocrian mode, and they still can't outline R, 3, and 5 on a standard blues progression!

I would recommend that everyone learn major and minor
really well, including:
-playing the scales root-to-root using several fingering choices
-being able to play the scales in all keys
-being able to sing any interval within the scale at random
-singing the solfa intervals (do re mi)
(Extra points for hand signs!)
-playing all instances of each pitch on your instrument
-naming the notes of the scale BEFORE you play them
-playing the scale in seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths and sevenths using 2 different fingerings for each interval
-play all the triads generated by the scale tones, including their inversions (again, using many fingering choices)

Once they have a good handle on that, they can move on to the diatonic modes, melodic minor modes, 8-note scales, pentatonic applications, and exotic modes. Of course this is just jazz harmony, there is also transcribing, studies, styles, functional harmony, music history, rhythm, sight-reading, piano, technique. . .

 

[cowsgomoo]

OK, this is what I discovered, but I don't know if this is good, bad or what? I don't know what can I learn about those two group of 6th's, anyone here can give us some help?

this hits on the fact that the modes are part of a sequence where each time, you lower by a semitone one note of a mode, to produce another (sorry that's not too clear... )

e.g.

lower the 7th (B) in C Ionian, to get C Mixolydian

lower the 3rd (E) in C Mixolydian, to get C Dorian

lower the 6th (A) in C Dorian, to get C Aeolian

lower the 2nd (D) in C Aeolian, to get C Phrygian

lower the 5th (G) in C Phrygian, to get C Locrian

and so forth... notice how the notes you're altering follow the 'cycle of 4ths'...

it can be helpful to think of your modes relative to each other in this way, as it gives you an idea of how far each mode 'strays' from the others... eg if you're trying to solo over a Mixolydian harmonic aroma, you know you can probably use Dorian and Aeolian too, as their relationship to Mixolydian is differentiated only by the 'bluesy' flattened 3rd and 6th... which will usually work

your ear will probably tell you that a 'wrong' note on the flat side will usually sound better than a 'wrong' note on the sharp side, so soloing Aeolian over Ionian will probably sound more palatable than vice versa...

(you can think of Lydian as slotting in above Ionian on that list above, the note being altered is the sharpened 4th (F#)being flattened)

those two things may partly explain things like Frank Zappa's prediliction for soloing over Lydian type vamps... as you can choose virtually any note and it'll either be within the Lydian mode itself, or have a 'bluesy' flattened relationship to it...

 

[JazzDude]

I'm not clear on some things here - maybe my formulas are wrong:

Ionian: C E G B D F A, or Cmaj13 chord
Dorian: D F A C E G B, or Dmin13#11 chord

Should this be a straight Dm13? I thought a #11 be G#?

Phrygian: E G B D F A C, or Emin13b9 chord

Should this be a b13? I'm not sure how to notate that.

Lydian: F A C E G B D, or Fmaj13#11 chord
Mixolydian: G B D F A C E, or G13
Aeolian: A C E G B D F, or Amin13
Locrian: B D F A C E G, or Bmin13b5,b9

Same here - should it be b13 on the Aeolian and Locrian examples?

The formula I've used is that the basic intervals are the same as the intervals in the Mixolydian mode. If they are not the same, then you modify the chord spelling.

 

[Baloo]

Thanks to all you boys, you gave me enuff material to learn and practice something new for 2 or 3 weeks.


One more thing Gard, let me tell you if I undertood you, you mean that the correct use of modes ( on theory) is to hit the whole notes of scale to make a chord called Ionian?

C, E, G + B + D, F, A
I II V VII IX XI XIII

This chord is called Ionian or Cmaj13?
But for any reason people just play some notes and sometimes the complete chord?

Am I right?

 

[Gard]

JazzDude -

You caught me! I mixed up my 11 and 13!!! Whoops!!! That should read: Dmin11#13

Here's how I think of the "chords" of modes, I take each 7 note chord and compare it to the major or natural minor parent scale (this is the way I was taught, it may be different than other ways? LM, I was taught to use the natural minor to define minor extensions, are you using Dorian for the same function?):

D Natural Minor - D E F G A Bb C

So, if you take and expand that to get the extensions, you get this -

Root: D
3rd: F
5th: A
7th: C
9th: E
11th: G
13th: Bb

In the case of D Dorian, the 6th/13th is raised a half step (i.e. sharped), giving us a #13

A "straight" min13th chord would be built on the Aeolian mode or natural minor scale (same thing: A Aeolian = A natural minor), so that answers your question about the chord built on the Aeolian mode - no, that isn't a b13!

The Phrygian "chord" does not have a b13, as it is built on E natural minor (in this specific case), which is E F# G A B C D, in E minor, C is the "natural" 13th tone.

The Locrian "chord" again follows the same rule, in this case in the B natural minor scale, B C# D E F# G A, so the G natural is still "correct" without an accidental/altered tone notation.

But, as Brad Johnson is famous for saying: "I could be wrong!"

It works for me though....

Thanks to all you boys, you gave me enuff material to learn and practice something new for 2 or 3 weeks.


One more thing Gard, let me tell you if I undertood you, you mean that the correct use of modes ( on theory) is to hit the whole notes of scale to make a chord called Ionian?

C, E, G + B + D, F, A
I II V VII IX XI XIII

This chord is called Ionian or Cmaj13?
But for any reason people just play some notes and sometimes the complete chord?

Am I right?

Baloo, you can use any number of variations of note groupings, my point here was to show that there was yet another way to see the mode, and think of it.

The chord is a Cmaj13, the scale is C major or C Ionian (same thing). The thing I get out of it is that each scale or mode is also a chord, if you look at it the right way.

Hope I'm making sense, and not too far from "right" (what ever the hell that is! )

 

[SlavaF]

I'm not exaclty sure how you can determine a "chord formula" from a scale... how do you get "Bmin13b5,b9" from B Locrian? I'm really confused here!

 

[Gard]

I'm not exaclty sure how you can determine a "chord formula" from a scale... how do you get "Bmin13b5,b9" from B Locrian? I'm really confused here!

B Locrian: B C D E F G A

B natural minor: B C# D E F# G A

So...

Bmin13: B D F# A C# E G, built from the B natural minor scale

Bmin13b5, b9: B D F A C E G, built from the B Locrian mode

Note that in the Locrian/min13b5, b9, the 5th is flatted when compared to the natural minor/min13 (F instead of F#); and the 9th is also flatted (C instead of C#).

Make sense?

 

[LM Bass]

The idea being put forward (If I am getting it right!)
is that you can take a mode, and build the chord by going up in thirds.

Thus B locrian generates:
B D F A C E G

Which is being called Bm13 b5

I beg to humbly disagree. This chord doesn't exist in nature. You will probably never see it in a chord chart on a jazz gig. Bmin b6 is a chord you will see, usually in Brazilian tunes that go: Bmin, Bmin(maj 7), Bmin7, Bmin6, Bmin b6, Bmin.

For the B half diminished function, usual alterations can include the major ninth (C#), and natural 11th (E).

I think it is a better idea to master the diatonic 7th chords,
then learn to add their extensions.
For example: C major 7th can have "D" added, which gives you C major 9th. If an 11 is added it is raised, to avoid the minor 9th interval E-F. So, the #11 would be F# in this case. The major sixth can also be added, which gives you C maj 13 (#11). This chord fits the Lydian mode.

Some chords can use all their extensions without dissonance.
The D minor 13, built from the Dorian scale is one. F maj 13 (#11) , built from the Lydian scale, is another. For these two, there are no avoid notes, and the chord is just built in thirds from the mode.

Hey Gard, I hope I haven't offended you. I was taught that a 6th or 13th when added to a 7th chord is always a major interval. A flat 13 will create a dissonance (minor 9th) against the perfect fifth lower in the voicing. (A minor has "E" as it's perfect fifth, and the b13 would be "F", creating a minor ninth interval in the voicing. Natural 13 (or, F#) creates a major ninth against the perfect fifth ("E"), which is more consonant) b13 is something I've seen on Altered Dominant chords, but usually in that case I use #5 for it. As in C7 (+5,b9) John Scofield is famous for adding lots of minor ninth and minor second intervals, and clusters to his voicings, as well as Herbie, Jarret, Chick, McCoy and a bunch of others. So obviously, the "Rules" we are laying out are just for starters anyway!

Going back to my earlier point, Jazz theory is not set in stone, so it could be argued that we are all correct!

 

[Andrew Jones]

Basic Rule of tensions is that they have to be a whole step above a cord tone to avoid dissenence.

As with all rules there are exceptions ie C7Flat9


If you Voice a C7Flat13 on the piano you omit the 5th it a very common cord Resolveing to minor( notice that the -13 becomes the -3 of the cord of resolution).


Gard no offence but you path of thinking is really more complicated than it needs be. I do however see the logic in it.

\
Aj

 

[LM Bass]

Cool, Andrew,

Just to rattle on a bit more:

C7 with a b13 implies a b9 or #9 below it. If there is no 5, why not just simplify it by calling it +5 ?

C9 b13 has a tritone between the Major 9 and b13, which is a bit gross sounding, even if the fifth was left out.

Any Altered Dominant chord with a +5 will have a b9 or #9, could have a #11, and implies superlocrian (7th mode of melodic minor) harmony.

Gosh, this far into the thread I have to wonder if the original poster is getting some good info, or we're just left here debating the minutiae of extensions (or "tensions" in Berklee talk -my friend Chris Tarry speaks that lingo quite fluently)

 

[JazzDude]

This is important to me - if I see, for example, a Cmin6 on a chart, is the chord tone A or Ab? Until I find out, I will have to avoid that note!

 

[Andrew Jones]

This is important to me - if I see, for example, a Cmin6 on a chart, is the chord tone A or Ab? Until I find out, I will have to avoid that note!

If you see that Cord it is spelt,C,Eflat,G,A.


So the 6th is a cord tone not a tension. the 7th/14th then may become a tension.


Aj

 

[Andrew Jones]

C7 with a b13 implies a b9 or #9 below it. If there is no 5, why not just simplify it by calling it +5 ?

this is not entirely true as a blanket statement.


Ok First I didnt mention the other rule of tentions the need to be diatonic.My Bad I'm sorry.


Were talking dominant cords right so lets just say that ANY diatonic cord can be proceded by its dominant.


First lets talk the 6th cord or natural minor. Key Bflat major/G minor


the Dominant cord is D7. Diatonic is D-7/phrygian mode. the Dom is created because of the stregth of the sound of the Leading tone (F#) going to the Root of the Gminor.

What 9th/2nd well if we look at the rules Ive stated we get Eflat and F wich one? Well its up to you could be either.


Heres a new Rule If you have Flat9 or Sharp 9 you could have the other (creating a 8 note scale)

So up we go.!! 11th? well are rules say diatonic and a whole step above a cord tone. F# is our third and G is in the scale so a 11th is out.

13th B Flat. wich you can use as long as you omit the 5th, A.

So we have D,Eflat,F,Fsharp,G,A,Bflat,C .

D mixo sharp9(or flat 9)Flat thirteen.


OK Homework what are the Scale/tentions for the Dominant (the G7) cord Goin to the II cord in a Bflat major Progresion


Bflatmajor/G7/Cminor/F7


Aj

 

[LM Bass]

HI Andrew,

Well, I think in that application, the scale used wouldn't be an 8-note dominant (Some call it the diminished scale starting with a half step). I think you are in Superlocrian territory, which generates the D7 (+5, b9) chord I mentioned earlier. The 8-note dominant has a natural 13, or B natural in it. Superlocrian is mode 7 of melodic minor:
D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C in this key. The scale tones generate all the extensions.

The mode you outlined D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C is the fifth mode of Harmonic minor, which goes by Spanish Phrygian. It is also a good choice in the function of V in G min, as you outline it.

LM

 

[Andrew Jones]

First of all I want to start by saying that my argument will be based on First choices ie inside sounding stuff. I will concede right now If you saying that you ideas work cause they will.My points will be what would be considered the First choices.

Well, I think in that application, the scale used wouldn't be an 8-note dominant (Some call it the diminished scale starting with a half step)

Its not a symetrical scale we have F,F#,G right in a row its not the Half whole scale. Its a modified version of Mixolydian. Dont be confused by my inclusion of two nines you can ommit one if you want(either)


For some reason that I'm not sure Of you seem to want to change the Chord into a D+7 Agmented Dominant (which you play whole tone over) If that were what people do a million and one charts and composers would be wrong.

One of the most basic reasons you want to Play G is because thats the Key that we're playing out off.Ditto for the A, the fith. The Notes Reinforces the sound and direction of where its going. Sit at a Piano and paly these things and let you ear guide you.



So howbout that homework question?


Aj