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Ibanez BTB Club, Part 2!

After going through a few round wounds, then years of the black nylon La Bella tapes, I have settled on the white nylon (brighter) La Bella tapes BUT the B string is a Chromes flat, as the B strings of the la Bella tapes didn't work with the taper sitting on the bridge and creating some unwanted harmonics. With the nordstrand 3 band preamp, I can dial in a very wide variety of tones.
 
WARNING: Super-long post. Please just skip it if you're not interested.
TLDR: Refret and other BTB fixes.

So ... back in June last year, with regard to a newly-acquired 2007 BTB 555 MP, I said ...

the only thing I don't really like is the medium frets. I tend to prefer jumbos and 6105s, and have consequently developed a fairly light-fingered fretting style. If you're playing stiff-ish flatwounds on mediums, you sometimes have to bury the string into the fingerboard to get it to ring true, whereas with taller frets you can just give them a light squeeze, sometimes not even touching the fingerboard. Nothing that a change of fretting style can't adjust for, but I still prefer my J's for that. I'll refret it with 6105 stainless at some point, and then the issue will solve itself, but I'm in no particular rush as it plays and sounds fine with a slight style adjustment.

Over time, the above issue got far too annoying for me and I decided to do something about it. In addition, my eyesight is getting worse as I get older, with the result that seeing the 2mm white plastic side dots in dark conditions / stages was getting increasingly difficult; so, when the family decided to visit some in-laws for a weekend, I decided to solve the issues once and for all.

I got hold of some jumbo Jescar stainless steel fret wire, removed the strings from the bass, and measured the fret radius. Fortunately, despite what I said in the previous comment, the fretboard is a 20" radius all the way down, so I only needed one curve. I then stripped the bass down and got it ready for action ...

01_stripped_and_ready.jpg

I then used my defretting pliers (just a cheap pair of end-nippers with the ends carefully ground flat and thin) to remove all the frets. Mercifully, when WMI in Korea had put them in, they hadn't used any glue and the slots were not too tight. They all came out very cleanly ...

02_fret_removal.jpg

I then used a field-expedited filing jig and a pair of safe-edge files to 'nip' the ends of the tangs off. Strictly-speaking, you don't need to do this on a non-bound fingerboard, but the originals were done like this and it helps the fret-end bevelling if you remove some mass first, especially with stainless. The de-tanged sections look quite large here, but that's because the frets are oversize; most of the extra overhang is going to get nipped / ground off ...

03_fret_end_prep.jpg

Frets all cut to length and ready to go. I'm sure I don't need to point this out to fellow BTB owners, but the 24th fret is there, it's just rather ... short.

04_frets_prepared.jpg

Kindly excuse the abysmal state of the workshop in the following pics, but I was doing this in parallel with a commission for building a custom-sized 5-bar gate and an outdoor bench, so the place is in mid-chaos state.

I put the frets in by gently hammering the ends into position, then using a fretting caul in the drill press as a fret press. If you ever do this on an already-carved neck, be aware that the neck is going to need some fairly-substantial in-situ support, otherwise you can flex / bend / break the neck / trussrod. Fortunately, I home-tech both my and some friends' instruments, so I have some support blocks already built. I also used walterw's method of using three small strips of fine gel CA glue (one at each end, one in the middle) to make sure the frets stayed down.

Be aware also that using the drill press as a fret press is prone to cause issues with cheaper drill presses. There are multiple reports of people breaking or bending their drill press tables, especially if they're made of pressed metal sheet instead of cast iron. Even the cheap cast iron ones will break under pressure, so be cautious. In the second pic below, you can see a block of wood just below the drill press table. this is a piece of 4 x 3 beam that I recovered from a family member's demolition site. It's been built into a supporting T-bar brace that's exactly the correct height for the 'fret press' table and spreads the load down to the feet of the press and into the floor. My drill press table's probably rugged enough, but I'm not taking any chances ...

05_frets_going_in01.jpg 06_frets_going_in02.jpg

I did the fret end nipping and beveling without taking any in-process pictures (sorry), but the results were pretty decent. I used a high-leverage end cutter (not ground as a fret cutter) to cut them as close as possible and then used an 80-grit carborundum and a 220-grit diamond stone to get them beveled. Stainless can be a beey@tch on files, so I try not to use them for heavy jobs.

07_frets_in.jpg 08_frets_ground_flush.jpg

I used blue sharpie to aid in the leveling process. I used kovax adhesive-backed 320-grit paper on the bottom of a spirit level as my leveling beam / straight-edge. The process takes longer with 320 grit than with the heavier grits that some use, but I prefer it because (a) it gives you more control (you can stop as soon as the frets are level without taking any extra off) and (b) it cuts down the amount of extra abrasion / polishing you have to do to get the scratches out as the scratches are already somewhat fine to begin with. The fret rocker confirmed when everything was dead-on.

09_sharpied_for_levelling.jpg 10_mid_level_equp.jpg

After getting the frets level, I taped-up the fingerboard and used a pair of single-cut triangular files (bahco 186 series) to do the fret crowning. The files have had safe, rounded-smooth corners ground into them with a bench grinder. This prevents / reduces the files biting into the fretboard during crowning and end-rounding. After I had the frets decently crowned and the ends rounded, I used good-quality wet-and-dry paper and went up through the grits (400, 600, 800, 1200, 2000) to polish them smooth. I didn't bother buffing them this time as I could both see and feel that they were already smooth enough after 2000-grit. The flatwounds can finish the burnishing process ...

11_taped_up_crown_polish.jpg 12_post_refret.jpg

With the re-fret pretty-much finished, it was time to deal with the side dots. I decided to replace the 2mm dots with 4mm aluminium tubes that had a 2mm bore. The idea was that I would use the tubes as the 'major circle' and then fill the inside of the tubes with strontium aluminate crystals ("glow-in-the-dark powder") and low viscosity CA glue. This idea came from Highline guitars and he has a good video on it for more information. The great thing about this is that you end up with a 4mm dot even if you never use the luminosity feature. You can also re-up the strontium aluminate if you want to (in a decade or so) by drilling out the CA and re-packing it.

Given the edge thickness of the fingerboard, to get the position correct, I had to start the drill roughly 0.5mm above the bottom edge of the existing dots so that I didn't stray too far into the maple neck. I used a bradawl to make a starting hole in each dot and then used a 2x6 as a jerry-rigged right-angle jig. It worked surprisingly well. The holes themselves were drilled with 4mm brad point bit at something approximating the right speed.

13_bradawlled_dots.jpg 14_drilling_side_dots.jpg 15_alum_tube_holes.jpg

I then used a spare piece of aluminium shim stock to act as a cutting guard and used a small modelling saw (zona) to cut the tubes almost flush.

You then alternately pack the tubes with strontium aluminate and CA glue. This needs some care and patience as the powder will almost insta-cure the glue unless there is excess glue. It's a good idea to fill the tube up to just below the surface of the neck wood and then fill the rest with CA glue. This ensures there's a thin CA 'cap' over the powder-glue composite. You can't see it in these pics, but I drilled 4mm holes in a strip of blue painters' tape and put the tape over the tubes when I was doing the packing job. This way, even if you over-flow, no CA glue gets on the neck -- very important! It's also useful to have CA Accelerator to hand if you do this job. It stops things running and can ensure things are solid.

I then used files and sandpaper to bring the dots down to level.

16_alum_flush_cut.jpg 17_dot_filled_smooth.jpg

You can charge up the strontium aluminate from any light source, but UV light is especially effective. In normal circumstances, I usually use a bright white-light flashlight but, in this case, the suppliers of the strontium aluminate also sold a reasonable UV LED keychain light, so I used that to charge the powder and test it out. If you charge the dots for about 10 seconds each they stay visibly illuminated for about 55 mins, although the light intensity fades constantly during that time. At 3 seconds each, you'd get about 35 mins. For a gig, you'd have to recharge at least once.

Fortunately, in my case I don't even really need the luminosity. Increasing the side dots from 2mm to 4mm (double the radius, four times the area) and, with the aluminium tube itself reflecting more ambient light than the previous white plastic dots, the markers are already readily visible in the contexts where I was previously struggling. The glow-in-the-dark stuff is a bonus.

18_dot_glowing.jpg 19_dots_glowing.jpg

WMI used some kind of polyurethane / polyacrylic on the neck, and I'd slightly caught the neck with the sandpaper here and there, so I bit the bullet, smoothed the transition between the fingerboard and the neck, and recoated the half inch nearest the fingerboard with wiped-on water-based polyurethane. I sanded down between coats. The interesting thing about the matt finish on the neck is that 600 grit was too smooth -- the poly was noticeably shiny and smooth enough to be tacky. The correct texture was somewhere between 400 grit and 600 grit (nearer the former than the latter). Immediately after I did it, the poly was a little bit gummy, as it tends to be, but poly essentially keeps curing forever and, after a month (I did this about 5 weeks ago) it's absolutely fine. I know from experience on another, similar, neck that it'll take about 4-5 months to harden to the point where you can't tell the difference, but that's just the nature of this domestic-grade formula. If I'd used 2K, it would be back to normally rigid within a week.

The supernaturally sharp-eyed among you may notice that the machine heads are different in this final pic. That's because, as I was restringing the old ones, I noticed two of them were worn and slipping badly. I managed to re-condition one of them but the other was sadly beyond repair. It was only the string tension that had been holding them in the correct orientation for function. It also turned out that, perhaps unsurprisingly, the Korean BTBs didn't use genuine Gotoh tuners. They used the local made-under-license ones from JinHo (who make some of the Wilkinson stuff). So I bit the bullet and ordered a full set of genuine Gotoh replacements. Unfortunately, this meant that I lost the sick-looking bead-blasted-style finish that is also on the matching knobs and had to settle for regular chrome but, on the up side: genuine Gotohs. The difference is not remotely close; it's night and day in terms of feel and stability.

I also used the hiatus to make a brand-new nut out of TUSQ plastic. This was also an additional improvement.

Anyway, I cleaned / oiled the fretboard and strung her up. She's been playing beautifully ever since and the jumbo frets make playing a joy with stiff flatwounds.

Back in business:

20_fretboard_oiled_back_together.jpg
 
Hey BTBers, I just ordered a BTB20TH5, another of the many Ibanez basses I've owned. I haven't seen this particular one in person yet, but I know it has the low gloss finish like the BTB747 has and I tried one of those at a local guitar shop the other day. I'm not a big fan of the low gloss. I much prefer the flat finish on my SR1346B and the BTB1905SM I used to own. I also have an SR600E that has a very similar finish, if not a smidge glossier, that I can also get behind.

So, my question: is it possible to take down the low gloss finish to something like the flat finish? I've been reading a lot about Scotch Brite or even steel wool sanding, but I'm not sure that will give me the results that I want. I don't know that I would describe the finish on my SRs as satin. It's almost like the wood doesn't have a finish at all, and I love that. From pictures I've seen of people "satin-izing" their gloss finishes, they look hazy/cloudy to me and seem to only work well on uniform colors.

What are your thoughts? Will light sanding do the trick? Should I explore applying a matte clear coat?
 
Hey BTBers, I just ordered a BTB20TH5, another of the many Ibanez basses I've owned. I haven't seen this particular one in person yet, but I know it has the low gloss finish like the BTB747 has and I tried one of those at a local guitar shop the other day. I'm not a big fan of the low gloss. I much prefer the flat finish on my SR1346B and the BTB1905SM I used to own. I also have an SR600E that has a very similar finish, if not a smidge glossier, that I can also get behind.

So, my question: is it possible to take down the low gloss finish to something like the flat finish? I've been reading a lot about Scotch Brite or even steel wool sanding, but I'm not sure that will give me the results that I want. I don't know that I would describe the finish on my SRs as satin. It's almost like the wood doesn't have a finish at all, and I love that. From pictures I've seen of people "satin-izing" their gloss finishes, they look hazy/cloudy to me and seem to only work well on uniform colors.

What are your thoughts? Will light sanding do the trick? Should I explore applying a matte clear coat?
You'd want to wet sand with small-grit sanding pads, like Micro Mesh. Wet sanding polishes at the same time. (Although, somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong!)
 
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You'd want to wet sand with small-grit sanding pads, like Micro Mesh. Wet sanding polishes at the same time. (Although, somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong!)

If you're trying to get it down to a flat finish, even the coarse micromesh pads might be too fine. Micromesh use their own grit system and the 'cushioned abrasives' (the pads) start at 1500; this equates to somewhere between P600 and P800 according to the literature.

I found that P600 was still too polished (i.e. semi-glossed) when I was redoing the neck on my BTB; In the end I had to go back and forth between P400 and P600 until I hit the right 'sweet spot' in the middle to match the matte finish that was on there already. I'm very hesitant to 'recommend' this, though, as P400 is hellaciously aggressive by the standards of most modern guitar finishing. Most matte finishes are done with an intrinsically matte finish to begin with that then gets sanded to between P800 and P1000 (some people prefer 0000 steel wool). If the underlying finish is naturally glossier (i.e. less matte in its natural formulation), you might have to go coarser with the abrasives. If you're using steel wool, I'd recommend having some neodymium magnets and a vacuum cleaner to hand to get the pieces. That stuff gets everywhere. It works, though.
 
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Hey BTBers, I just ordered a BTB20TH5, another of the many Ibanez basses I've owned. I haven't seen this particular one in person yet, but I know it has the low gloss finish like the BTB747 has and I tried one of those at a local guitar shop the other day. I'm not a big fan of the low gloss. I much prefer the flat finish on my SR1346B and the BTB1905SM I used to own. I also have an SR600E that has a very similar finish, if not a smidge glossier, that I can also get behind.

So, my question: is it possible to take down the low gloss finish to something like the flat finish? I've been reading a lot about Scotch Brite or even steel wool sanding, but I'm not sure that will give me the results that I want. I don't know that I would describe the finish on my SRs as satin. It's almost like the wood doesn't have a finish at all, and I love that. From pictures I've seen of people "satin-izing" their gloss finishes, they look hazy/cloudy to me and seem to only work well on uniform colors.

What are your thoughts? Will light sanding do the trick? Should I explore applying a matte clear coat?
I tend to advocate for leaving things stock especially when it comes to cosmetics. Functionality is another matter.

But one true thing to consider is the challenge of sanding a thru neck instrument.

That's a lot to move around and support physically while you tackle the task; with uncertain expected results.

I agree with you that there is something kind of “meh” about the low gloss finish. But I doubt any change would be noticed by anyone in the audience. A 747 has enough visual impact to outweigh anything minor — subtlety is not its game.
 
You'd want to wet sand with small-grit sanding pads, like Micro Mesh. Wet sanding polishes at the same time. (Although, somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong!)

If you're trying to get it down to a flat finish, even the coarse micromesh pads might be too fine. Micromesh use their own grit system and the 'cushioned abrasives' (the pads) start at 1500; this equates to somewhere between P600 and P800 according to the literature.

I found that P600 was still too polished (i.e. semi-glossed) when I was redoing the neck on my BTB; In the end I had to go back and forth between P400 and P600 until I hit the right 'sweet spot' in the middle to match the matte finish that was on there already. I'm very hesitant to 'recommend' this, though, as P400 is hellaciously aggressive by the standards of most modern guitar finishing. Most matte finishes are done with an intrinsically matte finish to begin with that then gets sanded to between P800 and P1000 (some people prefer 0000 steel wool). If the underlying finish is naturally glossier (i.e. less matte in its natural formulation), you might have to go coarser with the abrasives. If you're using steel wool, I'd recommend having some neodymium magnets and a vacuum cleaner to hand to get the pieces. That stuff gets everywhere. It works, though.

Yea, I don't know, it's feeling more and more like sanding an already glossy finish isn't going to give me the same result as the finish just originally being matte/flat.

I tend to advocate for leaving things stock especially when it comes to cosmetics. Functionality is another matter.

But one true thing to consider is the challenge of sanding a thru neck instrument.

That's a lot to move around and support physically while you tackle the task; with uncertain expected results.

I agree with you that there is something kind of “meh” about the low gloss finish. But I doubt any change would be noticed by anyone in the audience. A 747 has enough visual impact to outweigh anything minor — subtlety is not its game.

Slight correction, I bought a BTB25TH5 in the blue color, but your point remains: the bass is still a looker. However, I'm not looking to do this for any audience, I'm doing it for myself. I've been on a mission lately to thin my herd down to just the one or two perfect bass(es), and the BTB is the closest I've seen to an off-the-shelf bass that matches my requirements: 5-string, 18 or 19mm spacing, 35" scale that's not a fanned fret (I just sold my Dingwall NG3), super thin neck front-to-back, jazz or soapbar pickups, natural wood finish, and less than 9lbs.

To take the 25TH5 to perfection, for me, would mean making the wings fully ash instead of okoume, rounding off the sharp top edge, having a matte/flat finish, and the whole thing weighing around 8 lbs.

I'll have to deal with the okoume back (no big deal), I'll have to see if that sharp edge still bothers me now that I play with the bass between my legs, and I should be able to get the BTB I bought down to about 8.6 lbs by swapping the tuners. The last thing is that low gloss finish. But as I said above, I think I'm quickly resigning myself to just having to deal with it. I keep having really bad thoughts that sanding down that really dark colored back would look terribly cloudy/hazy.

I will have to see how the neck feels, though. Being neck-through, I believe the same lacquer is on the neck. If that's the case, I may still just lightly scuff the back of the neck to make it more comfortable to play and call it a day.

I'm also considering doing some electronics upgrades. I'm currently playing a Lakland 55-02 and I love how you can split the coils of the MM-style pickup at the bridge. So, I'm considering swapping in some Nordstrand Dual Coil 5 pickups into the BTB with a better preamp, and then replacing the mids frequency switch with a coil selector for the bridge pickup. And I may drill a new hole for a coil selector for the neck pickup. Whatever preamp I use would include a push-pull knob for switching to passive mode. We'll see, though, I don't even have the damn thing yet. Shipping says Wednesday! :)
 
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Yes my 747 has that sharp edge. It, too has sort of encouraged me to play it between my legs when seated but I’d also like to sand it.

There are no pickups to replace those particular 7 string Bartolini licensed, though. They’re not bad but no my sound. Aguilar seems to be the only pickup manufacturer who makes a modern pickup with my preferred powerful hot passive sound.
 
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Yes my 747 has that sharp edge. It, too has sort of encouraged me to play it between my legs when seated but I’d also like to sand it.

There are no pickups to replace those particular 7 string Bartolini licensed, though. They’re not bad but no my sound. Aguilar seems to be the only pickup manufacturer who makes a modern pickup with my preferred powerful hot passive sound.
I sanded down the edge of the 675 I used to own and then finished it with wipe-on poly. It worked out well.
 
Yes my 747 has that sharp edge. It, too has sort of encouraged me to play it between my legs when seated but I’d also like to sand it.

There are no pickups to replace those particular 7 string Bartolini licensed, though. They’re not bad but no my sound. Aguilar seems to be the only pickup manufacturer who makes a modern pickup with my preferred powerful hot passive sound.
Here's what the upper edge of my former 745 looked like after I tapered and refinished it:

pxl_20230707_173603391small-jpg.5251878


pxl_20230707_173610221small-jpg.5251879
 
Here's what the upper edge of my former 745 looked like after I tapered and refinished it:

Oh yea, I saw your posts before and thought about doing the same thing. I was in the neighborhood of Mike Lull in Bellevue the other day and asked what it would cost to do that. They estimated, without having seen the bass, $500-800. Yikes, I’m only paying a grand to buy the thing.

Did you sand it down yourself? Did the finish come out matching the body? Got a post walking through the process, by chance?

Thanks!
 
Oh yea, I saw your posts before and thought about doing the same thing. I was in the neighborhood of Mike Lull in Bellevue the other day and asked what it would cost to do that. They estimated, without having seen the bass, $500-800. Yikes, I’m only paying a grand to buy the thing.

Did you sand it down yourself? Did the finish come out matching the body? Got a post walking through the process, by chance?

Thanks!
I could just walk you through it - it was really simple. If you don't already have the materials for the job it'll cost you less than $50.

I'll do the write-up tonight.
 
I could just walk you through it - it was really simple. If you don't already have the materials for the job it'll cost you less than $50.

I'll do the write-up tonight.
I used 180 grit through 320 grit wet/dry paper and then micro mesh pads to do the shaping and polishing. The area is so small and shaped quickly enough that it was best to use small pieces of once-folded 180 grit to shape the taper. I tried to shape what felt like a natural taper from the top of the ash payer to just above where the oukome starts.

Figure out where your arm would rest and then shape the taper from there. Once the shaping is finished I started smoothing with higher levels of grit using Howard Feed n Wax as a lubricant, which also served as a prefinish.

Once I had smoothed the sanded area to what I wanted it to be I wiped on probably three or four coats of wipe-on poly. I think I lightly sanded with 400 grit after the 2nd coat to remove any small bubbles. I allowed the poly to dry and cure before I lightly wet sanded the final coat with 400 grit through probably 1000 grit (using the micro mesh, which starts at 400 grit equivalent).
 
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I used 180 grit through 320 grit wet/dry paper and then micro mesh pads to do the shaping and polishing. The area is so small and shaped quickly enough that it was best to use small pieces of once-folded 180 grit to shape the taper. I tried to shape what felt like a natural taper from the top of the ash payer to just above where the oukome starts.

Figure out where your arm would rest and then shape the taper from there. Once the shaping is finished I started smoothing with higher levels of grit using Howard Feed n Wax as a lubricant, which also served as a prefinish.

Once I had smoothed the sanded area to what I wanted it to be I wiped on probably three or four coats of wipe-on poly. I think I lightly sanded with 400 grit after the 2nd coat to remove any small bubbles. I allowed the poly to dry and cure before I lightly wet sanded the final coat with 400 grit through probably 1000 grit (using the micro mesh, which starts at 400 grit equivalent).

Right on, thanks!
 
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I'll take a look at home to see what kind of poly I used. All in all, the whole project was pretty simple.

Yea, it doesn't sound that bad. Patience is obviously a key with this kind of project. Plus, I could start by just knocking down the gloss finish to see how it looks before really digging in to round off the edge. Then, that could inform if I wanted to attempt knocking the finish down on the rest of the bass.

Thanks for the info! Looking forward to receiving the BTB tomorrow.
 

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