Ideas for modes/scales behind funk/blues

[CB3UK]

So first, let me say I hope this is the right subforum.
Second I did a brief perusal but didnt see anything really specific to my query listed in here, Im sure theres probably an existing thread if anyone wants to point me that way.


Anyway, my band is a funky blues rock occaisional wild jam kinda band.

What Im wanting is some ideas for new modes, or scales behind chords, that might be appropriate that Im not already using the hell out of. Octave slap, mixolydian, regular major and minor runs, pentatonic runs, sometimes using the 3rd or 5th to juxtapose against the root of a given chord....I dunno, I just feel like I find myself using a lot of the same tricks from my bag.

We're all experienced players, 3 piece, so I have plenty of space to fill but at the same time, I want to make sure to keep that safe pocket for grooving and not to overdo it on every song. Not really even sure what Im searching for, sometimes as y'all know a song just demands a certain kind of bassline be it simple or filthy, and Im sure all of you know what I mean when I say you find yourself wanting to fight that to do the non-obvious thing, but sometimes thats just what it needs.

Really I think Im just looking for some new tricks for my bag. Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, ways to come up with some good slap lines for my own composition...I dont know. Just casting a line out there to see what kind of feedback my TB brethren can offer.
THX

 

[FatStringer52]

I don't slap very much, so I can't provide you anything from that perspective. But with your chordal stuff, the 6th (both Major and minor depending on the chord) is something you can play around with. You could also try working inversions into your playing.

 

[Malcolm35]

Wow books have been written on this subject.

Follow the chords and play notes from the chord, or scale. Why does this work? Harmony happens when the treble clef and the bass clef share some of the same notes. So follow the chords and play some of the notes found in the active melody. Or follow the chords and play some of the notes found in the ACTIVE chord.

Yes I know you want to know which notes. It really boils down to play the notes that harmonize with what is going on in the song at this moment in time.

Scales for the melody and cord tones for your bass line.

 

[Papageno]

Harmony happens when the treble clef and the bass clef share some of the same notes.

Can you expand on what you mean by that?

I don't see how anything related to the clef could have any relevance to the harmony. The clef is merely a convention to write music down. Whether it's treble, bass clef or any of the many C clefs is irrelevant as far as harmony is concerned.

 

[Malcolm35]

Can you expand on what you mean by that?

I don't see how anything related to the clef could have any relevance to the harmony. The clef is merely a convention to write music down. Whether it's treble, bass clef or any of the many C clefs is irrelevant as far as harmony is concerned.

I'm speaking of the notes found in the treble and bass clef. If they share some of the same notes harmony happens.

 

[chaak]

try not to think or restrict yourself to modes and scales or at least do not perceive music as such. don't get me wrong, harmony is essential but treat it like the English language, you do not think you want to use a particular word or sentence structure to express your self you simply express yourself and then you evaluate the choices you made in the context. Think about chord changes and key signatures and look into which notes add color and which sound more interesting and take it from there rely on your ears and on your role as a bass player. You may at first utilize modes and scales to help you apply the correct "formula" but do not limit yourself to that. I was in an instrumental 3 piece band and the bass assumes lead roles doubles as a rhythm guitar (or the role of the left hand in piano) with plenty of chord playing, plays unison leads with the guitars, and locks in with the drums for a strong groovy pocket. listen to trios that include an electric bass player in jazz fusion and in progressive rock that helps.

for an avant-garde blues rock bass player check Tommy Shannon from The SRV band, study his lines his note choices against the chord progression and what the guitar is playing

for modern funk fusion rock check out The Aristocrats and Bryan Beller's playing in that context.

 

[brianrost]

Funk/blues is super simple, do not overthink it.

It's not so much what's missing from your bag of tricks, but how you apply what you already have. I can't count how many transcriptions I've done that show nothing that I don't already know how to do, just applying it in ways I have never thought of.

A great example is the transcription of the chorus of "Aint Too Proud To Beg" that's in the "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" book. Assuming it's accurate to what Jamerson actually played, it's so different than what I had always played when jamming. It just moves between C and F every two beats, but he uses a two bar phrase as follows:

Look at Bar 1, on both chords it's just root, 3rd and 5th in that order but the basic rhythm is reversed (quarter-eighth-eighth, eighth-eighth-quarter). The basic rhythmic pulse is altered with the eighth rest used to delay the arrival of the 5th which is then tied to the root of the C chord in bar 2. The 5th below the root of the F chord outlines the 2nd inversion or implies a Csus6.

In Bar 2 the rhythm is eighth (tied from bar 1) -quarter-eighth-quarter-eighth-eighth. The F chord uses the 3rd, the 2nd and then the b5 (B) as a passing tone to the root of the next bar...no root!

So what are the chord tones in use? R, 3, 5...no 7ths. Non-chord tones? You could consider the G as the 9 of the F, so Fmaj9 (see later) leaving only the B which is a b5.

Now check out the fill that leads into the chorus: A, G, E, B. That suggests an Fmaj9 with the B again used as passing tone. When you consider the rhythmic displacements that bring the funk, how about thinking of the B as an anticipation for a Cmaj7 or Cmaj9?

So Jamerson might be implying Cmaj9 to Fmaj9 (which the rest of the band may or may not actually be playing) rather than C7 to F7 which is how many bassists would approach a funk tune. I recall Anthony Jackson once complaining about funk players using b7 when the actual harmony is maj7 because of their over-reliance on box patterns, especially when slapping.

Ok, now you might ask what I had always played in jam sessions:

C E G F A C with the rhythm of quarter-eighth-eighth-quarter-eighth-eighth. Or even the "Midnight Hour" liine, playing the root with two eighths for a even eighth note feel.

Which line do you like better?

 

[Papageno]

I'm speaking of the notes found in the treble and bass clef. If they share some of the same notes harmony happens.

I still don't understand what you mean.

Would you show an example?

 

[Polish Thunder]

I will try to explain what I was recently taught. Let's say the guitarist is playing a Cmaj chord for a 4 beat bar. If you were to play a C, E G E (root, 3rd, 5th, 3rd) 1/4 notes in that bar, then the C would be in unison with the chord, even if the C is octaves apart. The E and G are the harmony notes as they are part of the Cmaj chord and harmonize with the chord. This is what I have learned at least about blues. If this is incorrect, please let me know as I am always trying to improve my music knowledge.

 

[Papageno]

I will try to explain what I was recently taught. Let's say the guitarist is playing a Cmaj chord for a 4 beat bar. If you were to play a C, E G E (root, 3rd, 5th, 3rd) 1/4 notes in that bar, then the C would be in unison with the chord, even if the C is octaves apart. The E and G are the harmony notes as they are part of the Cmaj chord and harmonize with the chord. This is what I have learned at least about blues. If this is incorrect, please let me know as I am always trying to improve my music knowledge.

Sure, playing an arpeggio is always a reliable way of outlining the harmony. But for a smoother line, you may also play C-D-E-G (1-2-3-5).

What is even more important to consider for a line that propels the music is to prepare the chord that comes next. If this is an F chord (IV chord) as you find in a blues, then you may play C-E-G-Gb / F, where have have both the arpeggio outline the C chord, and a chromatic walk down setting up the F chord. C-D-D#-E / F (triple triple chromatic approach) would be excellent too.

 

[Groove Master]

Each mode has its own specific tone or note. Try to come up with lines from the arpeggios and that specific note.

Ionian is the base but the Major 7 would be the one to highline.

Dorian is the Major 6

Phrygian is the b2

Lydian #4

Mixo is b7

Aeolian is the b6

Locrian is the b5

So as you can see even with 3 modes that has the minor 7 arpeggio each one has a specific note from the others. Make sure you put those in your basslines.

Hope this helps

GM

 

[mambo4]

Wooten speaks of how he first learned Dorian as "the James brown scale"

 

[Discount Bassy]

Play some of the notes that you avoid now.

 

[CB3UK]

Wow books have been written on this subject.

Follow the chords and play notes from the chord, or scale. Why does this work? Harmony happens when the treble clef and the bass clef share some of the same notes. So follow the chords and play some of the notes found in the active melody. Or follow the chords and play some of the notes found in the ACTIVE chord.

Yes I know you want to know which notes. It really boils down to play the notes that harmonize with what is going on in the song at this moment in time.

Scales for the melody and cord tones for your bass line.

Yeah, I do this routinely as a way to change things up. Not quite what Im talking about.

This is more about findibg inspiration and adding some new tricks to my bag. Feels like I've exercised the same stuff over and over even if its all different. Hard to explain. May just be a mental rut

 

[Malcolm35]

I found that the guys really did not want a lot of extra stuff. They wanted me to lay down a groove that everyone could jump in on.

 

[JTE]

Put you bass down. Play a recording of (or if you at a chordal instrument like guitar or keys, play that) of a set of chords you want new ideas for. Then after listening to it a few times, imagine what sounds good to you. Sing that line until it's fixed in your head. Only now do you pick up the bass. Learn what your ear came up with. Then examine it for harmonic and rhythmic info like brianrost did with "Ain't Too Proud To Beg".

Start with the story, not the alphabet. The line is the story, the scales are only the alphabet. And like language, you don't need to learn more alphabets, but read lots of good writing- so transcribing lots of different of good music (not just bass) gives you more ideas to explore. So don't think cart/horse, think horse/cart.

 

[Malcolm35]

^^ Hitch hiking on the above post. With the music I play with out a story there is no need for the song. Each scale and especially a mode has a mood. Pick the mood you want then use the scale or mode that gives that mood. No, don't change modes over every chord change. How often does a song change moods? Use one mode over the entire piece. And if a mode think of using a two chord vamp, instead of a chord progression. The modal sound has problems cutting through the tonal V-I cadence.

So are we going modal or tonal?

• Major scale = happy and up beat.
• Natural minor = sad. I really do not hear sad just a minor sound. You pick a name.
• Lydian with its sharped 4 gives a sound kinda 1/2 way between the major scale and mixolydian. To really set it apart sharp the 4 and flat the 7 for Lydian dominant. See what you think of Lydian dominant.
• Mixolydian gives a Latin sound.
• Dorian gives an attractive minor sound.
• Phrygian gives a Middle Eastern sound.
• Locrian gives a dark and tense sound.
• Major pentatonic sounds Oriental to me. What say you?
• The minor pentatonic is the back bone of Blues music. Normally played over a dominant seven chord I-IV-V progression. Leave the dominant seven off and we have a pentatonic scale that you can not do a lot of bad stuff with it. It fits most places. I have yet to come up with a name for it's sound.

Let your scale or mode help you with the mood you are looking for.

Do a Google on modal harmony.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

All the scales and modes in the world are no substitute for actually learning the song note-for-note. Amazing the mental gymnastics people will do to avoid sitting down and learning the song.

 

[two fingers]

Can you expand on what you mean by that?

I don't see how anything related to the clef could have any relevance to the harmony. The clef is merely a convention to write music down. Whether it's treble, bass clef or any of the many C clefs is irrelevant as far as harmony is concerned.

If you're a three piece band, I'm assuming you guys are guitar, bass, and drums. He just used a more elegant approach to say "play off of the guitar and you'll be fine". The guitar and vocals will hold down the melody and drive the chord voicings. There's your framework. Stay within that framework and you're all set.

Be careful, though. I've been in three piece bands. It's easy to think that means you have "more freedom". But SOMEBODY has to establish the ROOT for a majority if the song, or it loses its form. If you're constantly hammering on the 3rd, 5th, 6th, etc. your songs will begin to sound like a random mixed bag of chords one after the other.

 

[Papageno]

Harmony happens when the treble clef and the bass clef share some of the same notes.

If you're a three piece band, I'm assuming you guys are guitar, bass, and drums. He just used a more elegant approach to say "play off of the guitar and you'll be fine". The guitar and vocals will hold down the melody and drive the chord voicings. There's your framework. Stay within that framework and you're all set.

Be careful, though. I've been in three piece bands. It's easy to think that means you have "more freedom". But SOMEBODY has to establish the ROOT for a majority if the song, or it loses its form. If you're constantly hammering on the 3rd, 5th, 6th, etc. your songs will begin to sound like a random mixed bag of chords one after the other.

OK, if what was meant is "harmony occurs when you (and the other musicians in the band) outline clearly the chord progression", I understand and I agree of course, although that is not a particularly precise advice.

But the statement was really akward: if the guitar player (treble clef) plays the 3rd, 7th, 9th and 6th (or 5th) of the chord, and I play the root underneath (bass clef), the harmony is perfectly expressed, although no note is shared among the the treble and bass clefs.