Ideas for running sound from the stage?

[tbirdsp]

I've come to the conclusion that this is almost impossible to do successfully (and I've tried) - although I know many do it. I've only heard a mix that was better than "just adequate" from a band running their own sound a handful of times - there are always multiple things wrong. My main band currently hires out all of our sound, but I have some side projects starting where that may be impossible. Just curious how folks who think they are doing this well are operating - equipment, setup, adjusting, etc. I mean like other musicians in the room are telling you it sounds good - and they're not just being nice

 

[leurw]

We run our own sound for about 90 shows per year. We use a QSC Touchmix16 with saved scenes, so things like effects and EQ get recalled from the most recent time we played that venue. Doing this helps reduce accidentally overlooking some aspect of the sound (forgetting to adjust the delay in the backup vocals for example) and keeping everything dialed in. Think of it this way, Friday we played a small 100 capacity bar. Saturday we played outside in a beer tent for about 400 people. Luckily we had an "indoor small" and an "outdoor wide" scene to start from otherwise it would have been a nightmare trying to re-EQ the entire band from scratch.

Also, 3 out of the 4 band members are on wireless systems. We often run out into the crowd to interact with fans, and then take note if something needs to be tweaked. There is either an iPad or the mixer itself within arms reach of at least two of the "technically competent" band members.

But bottom line, a solid sound check is priceless. We entrust our BL (lead singer) to run the iPad during sound check while the drummer (who usually does backup vocals) sings. From there, we know that the lead singer needs to be "about" 3dB above the drummer.

It's not a perfect system, but it's proven more than good enough. We very often have other musicians in the room who are all-to-willing to give us negative feedback haha. So when they tell us that "the mix is like buttah" I tend to believe them.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Anyone running sound from stage should be a competent FOH and Monitor sound engineer. If not, don't bother IMO IME. There's a LOT more to it than people realise.

Get out there and mix for other bands, ask an experienced sound engineer to teach you in exchange for helping them setup/pack down.

 

[wmhill]

a lot of it depends on the band as much as anything. If you have guys that are gonna sandbag (play quietly until the first song then crank up) the sound check-forget, it'll never work. If guy's can do an honest sound check and leave the volumes alone, and you have a wireless to check on things you can do it OK. I like to pan (or sub) instrument to one side and vocals to the other- as it is usually the instruments that bury the vocals. You can turn them up & down relative to the vocals, but they stay mixed relative to themselves. Some guys have good luck with the DBX driveracks, they take care of the EQ, feedback etc. I prefer the sound I can get with real EQs /crossovers etc, but they are pretty easy to use and don't sound bad.

 

[musicman7722]

I do sound often for other bands as well as my act using a Mackie DL1608. I am wireless and we are pretty much virtual onstage. I have a small bass amp and lead guitar has a very sall amp as well. Neither of which can be heard out front. We are IEM as well. I save the show and check the sound each set from out front. I play to the main mix and do my best to keep the voices and guitars mixed properly. Has been working for 3 years now with no issues. Again my band mates are able to control their volumes, even my drummer so I count myself lucky.

 

[DirtDog]

I'm doing sound from stage, run my bass wireless and use the Presonus iPad app for mixing out front during soundcheck and if the tune allows me to spot check. Some of the challenges are: musicians messing with the levels during the set (as wmhill id'd), inability to sound check my own vocal mix; dealing with feedback quickly, overall levels as the crowd fills the room, responding to other bandmates' cues for monitor mixes.

It's not optimal at all, but is the only economical way for our smaller bar gigs.

 

[seamonkey]

IEM help
Digital mixers where you can switch from FOH mix to Monitor mixes in your IEMs

The wireless bass and soundcheck will help you set a baseline, to where you can mix from EIMs once the show is going.

 

[jaywa]

I played 3 years in a heavily booked band who ran sound from the stage and routinely got comments about how good our sound was in the house. The key elements:

- IEMs for everyone
- Wireless for everyone and at least two different band members going out in the house at some point each set to see how things sounded (and get the crowd involved)
- Agreement within the band on what constitues a good mix (kick drum and bass prominent but balanced, lead vox a close 2nd after that, backing vox after that and everything else fills in)
- Disciplined players who don't turn themselves up halfway through the 1st set and keep going from there
- Plenty of subwoofers (2 2x18s small rooms up to 6 2x18s for big rooms or outdoors) and wattage to drive 'em
- A good digital board where we could save settings for particular rooms we played frequently

Definitely not for every band but to have FOH sound that was better than any sound guy available in our local market AND save the money we would have paid him was a win-win.

 

[walterw]

+1 to actually going out and checking the mix, there is just no faking that with headphones or anything else. an isolated FOH "mix" is seldom anything like what it actually sounds like out front, which is why "board tapes" usually suck.

i suppose the exception would be zero-stage volume bands with electronic drums.

 

[Frankjohnson]

you know - sometimes you have to do the best you can with what you have. If you don't have the ability to pay for sound or have a friend help out - have the band play some.....go out and listen and adjust as needed. Know that they will adjust and amps warm up, people play harder etc as the night goes on and room dynamics change with more/less people etc.

If you have a wireless great - if not - just go out out listen or go as far as you can. I kick the vocals a little hotter if I am doing this, and accept that sometimes it is going to be what it is going to be. We usually do pretty okay. if you do have A person you trust - get their input/help. DON'T ask a lot of people - you won't stop futzing with the board.

if the band won't stop adjusting all set long, you are fighting a losing battle. I have worked with a lot of pro bands, and they are usually pretty good about setting it and getting it! it makes it better for them, me as a sound guy, and the audience. I make minor tweaks to the room - and for them only if asked.

ymmv

 

[delta7fred]

if the band won't stop adjusting all set long, you are fighting a losing battle.

This is the big problem with running sound from the stage.

We run sound from the stage for 99% of our gigs, if w get a provided PA and sound guy we leave them to it.

We play mostly small venues so we wouldn't have room for a board FOH. Vocal only PA with a smidgen of kick sometimes (just to shut the drummer up) and the guitarist's C9 (?) organ pedal.

It works for us, the guitarist operates the board and I walk the room at soundcheck and tell him what needs changing. The main thing is that we are not constantly tweaking our backline amps. Occasionally we will up the volume a little towards the end of the night but this is dependant upon the audience, not on us just wanting to play louder.

TL;DR Until you have disciplined musicians forget about running sound from stage.

 

[leurw]

if the band won't stop adjusting all set long, you are fighting a losing battle.

ymmv

I think this is where is really pays off to have everyone using IEMs. If you want to hear more of yourself, pull out your cell phone / iPod and make the adjustment in your IEM. Stage volume should be minimal and only really present because some people like to have the ambient sound on the stage through their IEMs.

 

[JohnMCA72]

I'm reminded of a famous quote (by whom, I don't remember): "Any man who defends himself in court has a fool for a lawyer and a jackass for a client!"

Something similar could be said for running sound while playing/singing in a band. Both will suffer. Whether that's acceptable or not "depends", like so many things...

 

[Medford Bassman]

We run sound from the stage. Have been for years. Sure hiring someone to run sound is nice but not critical for us. We run a QSC SYSTEM (tops and subs), IEM for all, no amps, electronic drums. Fairly easy to mix and quality sounds.

 

[dreamadream99]

We run our sound from the stage. There is actually a lot involved in getting it to sound good.
1. Using headphones, PFL each channel, comparing to mix, tweaking gain and fader till unity gain is achieved.
2. Get a monitor mix before main.
Listen to mains wirelessly from house.

 

[Frankjohnson]

Yeah - I don't know - lots of obsession on this

ran my sound from stage friday night - got levels in the room, - 250 seat place - so not huge, but not tiny.
I learned not to try to throw to the back of the room - it chases people from the front third of the room to the back. had good sound - kick, hat/snare/overhead on drums - more than enough.....bass rig is a genz shuttle 1-12, played it in the sweet spot, guitars are in 18 and 22 watt amps in the sweetspot - not mic'd this time, and were great. three vocal mics, one kw-181, two K12s for FOH, a K10 for drummer, two Mackie Thump 1000 monitors, I left mine in the van - and shared with with guitar player.

A friend sat in on bass second set, and I went out to listen - it was really nice - made a few minor tweaks, and saved the settings on the xr18. Bass and kick were clean and tight - gutiars were even, vocals were really clean and on top - drums were everywhere and clean - with no obnoxious ringing.

Yeah - you can't do it.......have to hire someone.....and I won't ever consider talking about it or changing my position......(kidding)
again - not a huge room, a solid blues band, not funk or classic rock - I get it - but people on the recieving end, and they want to hear the story - the instruments and each vocal, but not have their face taken off.

sometimes good enough is good enough

 

[Jeff Bonny]

What about asking one of the sound techs you use regularly on better paying jobs or a house guy you've worked with to come out, sound check you and leave? A lot of techs if they aren't booked will do this for a considerably cut rate. Yes it will cut into your take but consider it a temporary educational cost. Since the console will be on stage you can see what he's doing and pick his brain. Shouldn't be too long before you've learned enough to do it yourself. Lots of good advice has been given here but trying these ideas out on your own will still be a process of trial and error with the inevitable accompanying mistakes.

 

[tbirdsp]

Lots of good input so far. Digital mixer and a wireless to go check the mix seem like the ticket. If I start doing this a lot I'll replace my Line 6 G30 (crappy battery door broke) an probably spring for a XR18.

 

[bigboy_78]

We've had a bit of success with the iPad mixer (Soundcraft Ui16). If you've got a reliable friend in the crowd its pretty easy to hand them the iPad. Only to get the levels balanced, we don't let them play with the EQ or effects. Monitors can be tweaked on stage using another iPad/phone

 

[Mark Reccord]

you know - sometimes you have to do the best you can with what you have. If you don't have the ability to pay for sound or have a friend help out - have the band play some.....go out and listen and adjust as needed. Know that they will adjust and amps warm up, people play harder etc as the night goes on and room dynamics change with more/less people etc.

If you have a wireless great - if not - just go out out listen or go as far as you can. I kick the vocals a little hotter if I am doing this, and accept that sometimes it is going to be what it is going to be. We usually do pretty okay. if you do have A person you trust - get their input/help. DON'T ask a lot of people - you won't stop futzing with the board.

if the band won't stop adjusting all set long, you are fighting a losing battle. I have worked with a lot of pro bands, and they are usually pretty good about setting it and getting it! it makes it better for them, me as a sound guy, and the audience. I make minor tweaks to the room - and for them only if asked.

ymmv

Yeah, the on-stage volume war is no picnic even with a dedicated sound person. It's hopeless if you're mixing from the stage. Bands who are made up of people who care about the band's sound as a whole and can manage their dynamics are always easier to mix

Personally, I try to avoid mixing from the stage if at all possible. It's not about me not being able to put together a good sounding mix or anything, but rather a cognitive dissonance thing. I don't like wearing both soundman and performer hats at the same time. I seem to be unable to set it and forget it so constantly thinking about the mix detracts from my playing and performance and vice versa. I can't seem to turn it off, but that's me. If I'm playing I'd prefer to do only that and the same goes for mixing sound.

That said, the existence of wireless, IEM, digital desks and the ability to control those with an iPad definitely makes it a lot easier to manage than in the old days when amp racks weighed 500lbs and we had to walk to gigs uphill in both directions. Still helps to have a pair of trustworthy ears out in the house even if the person possessing those ears doesn't have the tech savvy to actually do anything about it.