Ideas for running sound from the stage?

[bucephylus]

I played 3 years in a heavily booked band who ran sound from the stage and routinely got comments about how good our sound was in the house. The key elements:

- IEMs for everyone
- Wireless for everyone and at least two different band members going out in the house at some point each set to see how things sounded (and get the crowd involved)
- Agreement within the band on what constitues a good mix (kick drum and bass prominent but balanced, lead vox a close 2nd after that, backing vox after that and everything else fills in)
- Disciplined players who don't turn themselves up halfway through the 1st set and keep going from there
- Plenty of subwoofers (2 2x18s small rooms up to 6 2x18s for big rooms or outdoors) and wattage to drive 'em
- A good digital board where we could save settings for particular rooms we played frequently

Definitely not for every band but to have FOH sound that was better than any sound guy available in our local market AND save the money we would have paid him was a win-win.

+1 to everything EXCEPT the kick.

I will absolutely NEVER understand the near obsession 99% of the sound people have with the kick. Where on earth does that come from? It's not on the studio recordings. It is generally played on the 1 and 3 beats, which is NOT good groove. Maybe some Metal. But, most club music that people dance to works off the 2 and 4. I'll take the snare in that slot near the bass in the mix any day over the kick. Any time I'm doing fill in and the sound person sets up for kick way up in the mix is an uh oh moment for me.

 

[Fishyfishfish]

Been doing it from the side of stage for two bands I've been in and it does take some discipline from the band (GUITAR PLAYER-s)
As well as knowing your system and frequencies and how to mix. Other than that just time invested in making it sound good.

 

[jaywa]

+1 to everything EXCEPT the kick.

I will absolutely NEVER understand the near obsession 99% of the sound people have with the kick. Where on earth does that come from? It's not on the studio recordings. It is generally played on the 1 and 3 beats, which is NOT good groove. Maybe some Metal. But, most club music that people dance to works off the 2 and 4. I'll take the snare in that slot near the bass in the mix any day over the kick. Any time I'm doing fill in and the sound person sets up for kick way up in the mix is an uh oh moment for me.

I understand where you're coming from but if the snare sound isn't happening and it's way up high in the mix, it can ruin everything. IME the biggest places where a lot of sound guys fall down in getting good musical sounds is the snare drum and acoustic guitar. When that kick is punching folks in the chest and the bass guitar is reaching them... um... somewhat lower in their anatomy... yet the bass has its own character and defined notes instead of just adding some muddy tonality to the kick drum... then things are happening.

 

[bucephylus]

I understand where you're coming from but if the snare sound isn't happening and it's way up high in the mix, it can ruin everything. IME the biggest places where a lot of sound guys fall down in getting good musical sounds is the snare drum and acoustic guitar. When that kick is punching folks in the chest and the bass guitar is reaching them... um... somewhat lower in their anatomy... yet the bass has its own character and defined notes instead of just adding some muddy tonality to the kick drum... then things are happening.

So, out of curiosity, do you think sound folks have trouble with the snare because they haven't thought about it; or is it because there is some kind of equipment issue?

The reason for asking is that I am constantly struck by the dichotomy between what you hear on the juke box for almost every pop tune from Aerosmith to Bruno Mars, where the snare dominates the mix on 2 and 4, with the kick back in the mix around backing guitar level, compared with the main thing a lot of sound guys set up for the mix with the kick, which happens to be the 1 and 3. Nobody dances to the 1 and 3. The hand clap is 2 and 4. It has always seemed to me that there is a perception that the bass drum conveys power, and the sound guys are going to make sure that the band sounds "powerful." But, IMO, that is a pretty serious misconception about how dance music works across a pretty broad spectrum of the cover tunes. If you are doing death metal or something, and you are trying to get a non-groove sense of power across, then fine. All depends on what your musical purpose is.

 

[rob2966]

I mix from the stage reasonably often. I have a wireless system for my bass and use an X32 rack and iPad for the mixer. I do occasional "walkabouts" to ensure the sound is still as expected. My occasional backinG vocals are not overly critical, I set their levels based on the other band members singing backup.

Later
Rob

 

[LiquidMidnight]

So, out of curiosity, do you think sound folks have trouble with the snare because they haven't thought about it; or is it because there is some kind of equipment issue?

I would say it's the former rather than the latter. Unlike kick drum, which often requires some decent equipment to mix well (i.e., good mic, good subs, compressor, gates, etc.), achieving a quality snare sound doesn't require a lot of equipment - usually an SM57 (if a dedicated snare mic is not available) and some decent tops will get you 90% of the way there, so as long as the snare itself is tuned well with a good head.

When there is an issue with the snare, I find that's it's usually two problems: It's too loud and/or it's very boxy sounding. Because the snare is naturally one of the loudest things on the stage, in some rooms, you have to mix the entire band around the snare. My ears enjoy a tight, high-tuned snare (think Chad Smith from RHCP or Kate Schellenbach from Luscious Jackson), so anytime the snare achieves that sound, I'm a happy camper.

 

[bucephylus]

I would say it's the former rather than the latter. Unlike kick drum, which often requires some decent equipment to mix well (i.e., good mic, good subs, compressor, gates, etc.), achieving a quality snare sound doesn't require a lot of equipment - usually an SM57 (if a dedicated snare mic is not available) and some decent tops will get you 90% of the way there, so as long as the snare itself is tuned well with a good head.

When there is an issue with the snare, I find that's it's usually two problems: It's too loud and/or it's very boxy sounding. Because the snare is naturally one of the loudest things on the stage, in some rooms, you have to mix the entire band around the snare. My ears enjoy a tight, high-tuned snare (think Chad Smith from RHCP or Kate Schellenbach from Luscious Jackson), so anytime the snare achieves that sound, I'm a happy camper.

+1. Totally agree with all of your comments.

 

[s0c9]

When there is an issue with the snare, I find that's it's usually two problems: It's too loud and/or it's very boxy sounding. Because the snare is naturally one of the loudest things on the stage, in some rooms, you have to mix the entire band around the snare. My ears enjoy a tight, high-tuned snare (think Chad Smith from RHCP or Kate Schellenbach from Luscious Jackson), so anytime the snare achieves that sound, I'm a happy camper.

of course.. garbage in does not get studio quality audio out.. no matter how good you are.
crappy snares, badly tuned even with a decent mic/FOH guy are NOT going to sound good..
most drummers I know have no clue how to "properly" tune their drum kit.. never mind a fish.
Those that do (few and far between IME) are a joy to work with... kinda like guitar players who know how to control their stage volume

 

[jaywa]

Boxy snares stink. Heard too many of em and that's why I favor generally turning them down as a rule.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

of course.. garbage in does not get studio quality audio out.. no matter how good you are.
crappy snares, badly tuned even with a decent mic/FOH guy are NOT going to sound good..
most drummers I know have no clue how to "properly" tune their drum kit.. never mind a fish.
Those that do (few and far between IME) are a joy to work with... kinda like guitar players who know how to control their stage volume

Half the battle of a good drum mix is having a well-tuned kit, indeed.

 

[4Mal]

no doubt about that. I carry stick on deadening. Most drummers seem to be ok with us using it. I try for three mics on the kit at a minimum. Kick, Snare and Overhead. If there is time, I have some Sennheiser E604 clip on's which sound nice on the snare and rack toms. If there is no Sax, I'll put my 421 on the floor tom. if there is sax , probably an I5.

the place I try to start is on stage and right up on the kit. I want to hear each drum and treat it accordingly for mic placement and ask about deadening if necessary. If we get that right, everything else will fall into place.

Once a drummer gets that we know what we're doing, we get very little static...

When we have a decent sounding kit, we'll work on the bass tone and get some separation between the kick and floor tom and the bass.

I'm a bass player/sound guy. I love drums. I love the interaction between the bass & drums so I want to hear it all...

My drummer and I gave been working together for several years. My rig and his drums are pretty much set and forget at this point. I always have his kick and my bass in the pa, even on lounge gigs. They don't have to be up much but there is a nice produced sound we are trying to achieve and having everything in the mix is a part of that. That we can play at a very low stage volume helps enormously...

 

[jaywa]

I'm a bass player/sound guy. I love drums. I love the interaction between the bass & drums so I want to hear it all...

My drummer and I gave been working together for several years. My rig and his drums are pretty much set and forget at this point. I always have his kick and my bass in the pa, even on lounge gigs. tey don't have to be up much but there is a nice produced sound we are trying to achieve and having everything in the mix is a part if that. That we can play at a very low stage volume helps enormously...

+1 to all of this. I'm not anti-drums, I'm anti-bad sounding drums that swamp the entire mix in thud and low-midrange howl. In the self-mixed band I used to be in we would get drum kit levels, then bass level solo, then the drummer and I would run down an entire verse and chorus just as a duo and we'd tweak the levels and EQ so that drums and bass sounded awesome as a unit (I was wireless so I could go out in the house and get a real listen). Then stripped those frequencies off the guitar channels and away we went.

Doesn't matter a whit how great drums or bass (or guitars or keys or vox) sound on their own if it all falls down in the final equation.

 

[4Mal]

yeah man, music, it's a team sport ;-)