IEM and amp for live sound

[lotusland9663]

I'm playing in a band where only the singer is using IEMs. When things get very loud on stage I can't hear myself. If I turn up to hear myself everyone complains they can't hear themselves (bass is very powerful after all -lol).

What I'd like to ask is - is it possible to use an amp plus an IEM system from my bass amp to my IEM only to hear myself without upping the stage volume (no PA involvement)? Maybe I'd have one bud in and one out to hear everything?

 

[tshapiro]

Yes, of course, I do this pretty frequently. I have hearing damage so always use in ears. If I’m sitting in with another band or situation where I can’t get a monitor line, I just split my signal and run 1 line to my amp and 1 to my personal monitor amp and IEM’s. I generally leave the earbud that is away from the drummer cracked so I can hear the band.

 

[monkeyland]

Doing this will shut out the band sound. The one in and one out thing is a bad idea and can actually cause more hearing loss issues than otherwise.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Where is the singers IEM feed coming from?

 

[EastCoastThump]

When things get very loud on stage I can't hear myself.

If your stages are significantly louder than your ideal monitoring level, it can be possible to wear IEMs as combination personal monitors + hearing protection.

Depending on the type and model you use, using earphones will reduce the ambient stage—from 5 or 6 dB up to about 25 dB. Unless your band is deafeningly loud on stage, the greater isolation of custom earphones will likely leave the ambient stage sound too quiet for your monitoring tastes. However, universal fit 'phones (or custom fit phones with ambient ports) can work for what you're proposing.

Note that if you use universal fit earphones, the type and fit of the eartips can also make a very noticeable difference in how much stage volume makes it past your earpieces. You might think yo could pick the eartips that leave the ambient stage sound at the monitoring levels you prefer. But in practice, you'll have to choose eartips that give you a solid seal in order to hear the low end of your bass, so you don't have the freedom to tweak here to determine how much stage sound gets through.

If you stay wired, a range of simple devices can give you control over different elements of your mix. They aren't the only options, but to get a sense of how the input and routing options, have a look at the Rolls PM55p and PM351.

• "More me": just a split from your bass, or that instrument split + your vocal mic. Turn up these "more me" elements to sit where you want them against the ambient stage sound that's making it past your earphones. If you don't sing but you use a "more me" monitor with a mic input, you can use the mic input for an ambient stage mic. (I'll skip discussing complications and caveats here. The short version: placing and aiming an ambient mic with separate volume control gives you somewhat flexible control over the balance of the stage sound that you can boost in your simple IEM mix. The downside is that it adds an open mic directly to your IEMs, so you must set gain and monitoring levels conservatively *and* use a limiter to avoid dangerous spikes from the ambient being dropped, bumped, etc.)
  
• More flexibly, most simple "more me" mixers also provide separate volume control over input from the mixer's aux send (usually with the capability to accept a stereo send). That would be the next (big) step to a satisfying custom IEM mix. But since you specified "no PA involvement," we'll say no more.

 

[lotusland9663]

Thanks guys - great information. I bought the Rolls PM55P now I have to get some better buds. The ones I have ($400) are great for recorded music but can't handle the bass only assignment.

 

[walterw]

now I have to get some better buds. The ones I have ($400) are great for recorded music but can't handle the bass only assignment

wow, what did you buy for so much that won’t do the job? are they dual-driver at least?

 

[craigie]

I also use IEM’s because my mate won’t turn down th stage monitors below hearing damage level, and I use an amp as a stage monitor for mostly him and it blends with my IEM’s.

It’s funny that only your singer uses IEM’s. To me it makes getting the blend right singing a bit too icky because of bone conduction.

One solution that wasn’t proposed was lower stage volume. I guess when dealing with a live drummer this isn’t always possible though.

Good luck with the in ears, I believe you’ve made a wise investment in protecting your hearing!

 

[lotusland9663]

The buds I bought were not for live music production but for listening to recorded music . For that purpose they work very well.

I play in another band that plays in smaller venues with no FOH. I love the low stage volume. I can hear everything and don't have to work hard to play.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

The buds I bought were not for live music production but for listening to recorded music . For that purpose they work very well.

I play in another band that plays in smaller venues with no FOH. I love the low stage volume. I can hear everything and don't have to work hard to play.

What in ears did you end up getting? I highly reccomend getting a set of kz zs6 or zs10's with triple flange or comply foam tips both have worked excellent for bass for me

 

[Droopy_TX]

"More me": just a split from your bass, or that instrument split + your vocal mic.

What do you use to create the instrument split to go to the Rolls?
I only have a single line out on my amp; which I assume should go to the board.

 

[EastCoastThump]

The Rolls has an instrument pass-through.

Simplest case is bass (or pedalboard)-->Rolls-->amp. But there are a lot of ways to route, depending on the bass tone(s) you're after, whether there's FOH DI in the picture, and the SE's preferences.

 

[lotusland9663]

What in ears did you end up getting? I highly reccomend getting a set of kz zs6
Exactly what I got. I haven't tried them live yet but they do sound good on a trial basis at home.

What do you use to create the instrument split to go to the Rolls?
I'm using an Male XLR to female 1/4" adapter to the effects send on my B Amp (recommended by Jim Bergantino). Apparently you can also go from the Rolls to the Line out but I didn't get much volume that route
If anyone has any other suggestions I'm game.
Keep in mind, for now, this system is strictly between my amp and the Rolls - no PA involvement.

 

[Droopy_TX]

The Rolls has an instrument pass-through.

Oh yeah!

I think @s0c9 and I went over that offline, but I keep forgetting that configuration.

I have the PM55P for the limiter; but, it has fewer connections.
It doesn't have the instrument through, but I can use the mic through with the XLR line-out from my amp.

Thanks!

P.S. I am curious, though, is anyone splitting their bass signal to run into separate amps or what-have-you? If so, what devices/cables do you use? And what about single degradation/attenuation?

 

[Scottkarch]

For small bars/clubs I've been going ampless for about 2 years. Preamp/DI into our mixer and each member gets a dedicated IEM mix.

Our wireless IEMs are from Galaxy Audio. They are OK, but the quality isn't as good as wired headphones. Lately I've been going wired for all gigs and enjoy the better quality over wireless flexibility.

We played an outdoor show and I brought my 212 + 212 rig to give more beef to the sound outdoors. My amp was set to about 2/3 volume.... so probably close to wide open. I used IEMs and man am I glad. They acted as great earplugs keeping down the volume in my ears to a non-damaging level. We play a large town festival this weekend and I'll probably be doing the same thing. For me, going IEM with a dedicated mix is so much better than wedges and a loud stage... or wedges and a quiet stage. I have come to rely on our IEMs to hear my bass and vocals clearly over everything else.

For the shows that we don't want to bring our mixer, I have a Rolls PM351 I can use to take a monitor return mix from the supplied PA, and mix in my bass direct and my vocals direct and have control over them. I've played too many places without enough control of my monitor sound I won't be without some level of control any longer.

 

[kartiste]

I have been following these wired IEM threads for a while and I think I might want to go this route. I sing lead on a handful of songs and intermittently sing backup. I often have trouble hearing my bass notes clearly, with mixed results from the usual cabinet placement tricks. I typically move back from the mic when not singing, and move toward the guitarist or drummer or maybe just back closer to my cab. So a wired setup could work within the limited real estate I move around in.

I have a Behringer UB802 mixer. I'm thinking I could set this next to my amp; post-DI from the amp to the PA mixer and also to the UB802; monitor mix back to the UB802; headphone mix from the UB802 to a Behringer PM1 on my belt through a TRS/XLR cable; KZ ZS10's to my ears. I've got a Boss WL-20L on order for my bass already, so the IEM cable would be the only one I'd have to wrangle.

I would mix in my bass to taste with the UB802. I've read about phase problems with two bass signals. I use an fDeck HPF, which has a phase switch, but I re-packaged it for direct insertion into my EFX loop jacks on the back of my amp, and that loop is after the DI in the signal flow. So while I couldn't use it to align phase in my IEM's, I could still get in-phase bass acoustically as long as I don't dispense with a cab altogether.

Does this sound reasonable? The UB802 specs +19dBu (+25dBm) for the headphone max output. Would this be more than enough for the KZ ZS10's, making control with the PM1 a useful thing? Any other comments welcome.

 

[craigie]

I have been following these wired IEM threads for a while and I think I might want to go this route. I sing lead on a handful of songs and intermittently sing backup. I often have trouble hearing my bass notes clearly, with mixed results from the usual cabinet placement tricks. I typically move back from the mic when not singing, and move toward the guitarist or drummer or maybe just back closer to my cab. So a wired setup could work within the limited real estate I move around in.

I have a Behringer UB802 mixer. I'm thinking I could set this next to my amp; post-DI from the amp to the PA mixer and also to the UB802; monitor mix back to the UB802; headphone mix from the UB802 to a Behringer PM1 on my belt through a TRS/XLR cable; KZ ZS10's to my ears. I've got a Boss WL-20L on order already, so the IEM cable would be the only one I'd have to wrangle.

I would mix in my bass to taste with the UB802. I've read about phase problems with two bass signals. I use an fDeck HPF, which has a phase switch, but I re-packaged it for direct insertion into my EFX loop jacks on the back of my amp, and that loop is after the DI in the signal flow. So while I couldn't use it to align phase in my IEM's, I could still get in-phase bass acoustically as long as I don't dispense with a cab altogether.

Does this sound reasonable? The UB802 specs +19dBu (+25dBm) for the headphone max output. Would this be more than enough for the KZ ZS10's, making control with the PM1 a useful thing? Any other comments welcome.

You have the UB802 so just try it with some headphones. The kz’s Shouldnt be too different. You don’t want it loud enough to cause hearing damage which could happen if you’re trying to drown out stage noise.

Sounds like a bit of a complex setup but ok. If you can get your own monitor feed from the main mixer then you can mix your bass and voice and the rest however you want them. That’s what I do, into a headphone amp near my amp and then hang my cables (taped them together). A stereo mix would be way better though, which is what you should be able to do with your own monitor mixer. Just make sure the Pm1 can do stereo.

 

[kartiste]

You have the UB802 so just try it with some headphones. The kz’s Shouldnt be too different. You don’t want it loud enough to cause hearing damage which could happen if you’re trying to drown out stage noise.

Sounds like a bit of a complex setup but ok. If you can get your own monitor feed from the mixer then you can mix your bass and voice and the rest however you want them. That’s what I do, into a headphone amp near my amp and then hang my cables (taped them together). A stereo mix would be way better though, which is what you should be able to do with your own monitor mixer. Just make sure the Pm1 can do stereo.

My headphones are so ancient I don't know if they are comparable to ZX or not. And to be clear, the PM1 is a passive (stereo) pot, so it doesn't boost. I just want "more" coming into it so I can cut it back to the right level without going back to the mixer. I don't want to drown out the vocal mix, because I'm singing in that mix.

 

[FifthBelow]

P.S. I am curious, though, is anyone splitting their bass signal to run into separate amps or what-have-you? If so, what devices/cables do you use? And what about single degradation/attenuation?

I use a VT Bass DI to split my bass signal. Having 3 output options makes it a versatile tool. My church's sound man prefers straight from the instrument, no effects, so the 1/4" Parallel output goes to the house DI and thru to a stage amp. I dial in the VT Bass' eq and amp sim to my taste, XLR out to the Mic input of the PM55P. Works great!