Double Bass If you could go back to the beginning?

[David Potts]

How would you have liked your learning process and playing experiences to be different?

When I started bass 50 years ago as a 23yo all I wanted was to sound like Ray Brown - this caused much merriment with my first teacher forever after! He started me on Page 1 of Simandl and, even though I barely knew the B Flat scale, sent me off on my first gig, a wedding reception. I spent more on hiring the fancy jacket than the gig paid and was deeply embarrassed when the pianist quietly said "Son, just watch my left hand." He also sent all his students along to a free youth orchestra that was sponsored by a major car maker. If there was ever a performance on a Friday night they had no bass section because we were all out playing gigs.

I then graduated to various amateur orchestras and musicals. My first Gilbert and Sullivan opera was a real eye-opener - how easy it was to become hopelessly lost among the many repeated sections and page turns but, boy, did I learn fast. I was still playing piano,bass and drums gigs but was never going to be Ray Brown and realized I was a better classical/orchestral player. I then changed teachers to a symphony pro who soon after became the Principal in the Sydney Symphony Orchestra.

After completing Simandl Book 1 that first year I thought "Hey, I'm a bass player" but the reality was that I was completely lost if I could not look at my hands as I played. I was terrified of playing in a pit band where only the music was lit by a sconce.

Looking back now neither of my first teachers drilled me sufficiently on
(1) a strong overview of the fingerboard and how it works
(2) a thorough knowledge of the notes and all the places to confidently find them
(3) a strong sense of scale and arpeggio structures, and alternate fingerings
(4) a good shifting technique that would enable me to play notes of any length, speed or style with confidence
(5) a "do or die" tenacity to keep on playing through difficult passages despite mistakes.

Aged 26 I left my industrial chemist day job and joined the new Australian Broadcasting Commission's 35 member National Training Orchestra, formed to fill lots of vacancies coming up in their six full-time orchestras (I auditioned with the Allegro movement of the Galliard Sonata!) We studied many of the core repertoire pieces and were able to do casual work with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra (my audition piece was the first two movements of the Eccles Sonata plus scales and sight reading).

In 1970 I won my position in the Sydney Symphony with two movements from the Dittersdorf E Major Concerto. This was the first time the audition panel had ever heard it, such was the state of bass playing. The English orchestras were advertising here for players, offering free air travel and contracts. Hearing Gary Karr's first vinyl record and seeing him on TV playing The Swan with Bernstein were both very inspiring.

At this stage I stopped having lessons (a big mistake), got married, bought a house, started teaching and generally got on with my life in the orchestra. I had a legacy of mainly left hand problems, some that were only sorted out years later by a visiting bass player, John Gray

Looking back now, everything in the learning process seems so simple and clear compared to when I was in the thick of doing it. It is still not easy to teach as logically,clearly and simply because each student has a different personality and set of skills that have to be accommodated.

How would you have liked to be taught differently if you had your time as a student again?

Cheers, DP

 

[sgambo7]

David,

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I am glad to see that you started playing bass at 23. I started at 24 and have been playing for about 6 months (I'm 25 now). I decided to finally got myself a double bass after wanting one for years. I didn't go in completely blind... I have a pretty good grasp on music theory, and have been active in the local music/theatre scene on electric bass for a few years. Still, I knew the double bass was a completely different instrument, so I decided the best thing to do would be to completely immerse myself in all things double bass... I started taking weekly lessons immediately with a symphony bassist, and joined my local community orchestra.

I have never been so obsessed with something in my entire life. All of a sudden, I actually want to practice, something I was never very disciplined at when it came to the electric bass. Even if I am just practicing scales and arpeggios, open string exercises, etc... it just feels right! When I am not practicing, I'm thinking about what I am going to practice later on.

I feel as though I am progressing steadily, and I think (or hope) my teacher feels the same. We mostly work on technique, Simandl I, and solo repertoire. I played my first recital at the beginning of the month (I played Marcello Sonata in F major). I am currently working on the first movement of the Dragonetti, and the Sammartini Sonata in A minor for two cellos, both of which I will play at the next recital in the Spring.

Sorry I'm giving you my whole life history here. Since I am still sort of at "the beginning", my only regret is that I didn't start sooner. I've been beating myself up over not starting when I was younger and had much more free time. I graduated college with a B.A. in History because I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. Now, I finally know what I want to do... play bass! But I feel it's too late to go back to school and get a formal education in music. I know I shouldn't be dwelling on the past, but it's hard not to. I am just going to keep playing, and be sure to drill the things you mentioned in your list.

 

[Lee Moses]

David, I enjoyed reading your story. Yours too, sgambo. I suppose for me, my answer would be, Start earlier, commit more to double bass, and keep with it.

I started playing electric bass when I was 14, and within a couple years I wanted to learn DB. However, when one door closed on me, I didn't try to push it or find another. So instead of beginning in my teens, I had my first introduction to DB at 21. While it's never too late to start, getting a few years' head start would have made a difference.

Then in college as of age 22, DB was officially my "principal instrument." But I always considered myself an electric bassist, and DB was more or less a second instrument to me. And I was very into the college party scene, worked a job, and played gigs (always on electric) on weekends. So I really didn't commit to the instrument as I should have, and didn't make the most of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

I had rented my instrument in college. So when I graduated, I found myself without an instrument. I planned to buy one, but it took 15 years. So I spent years away from the instrument, forgetting what I had learned and completely losing my physical awareness of the double bass.

I have since committed myself to DB probably as much as ever. But life is in the way now, with full-time work, family, etc., and practicing 3+ hours in a day is a luxury I'm not likely to see any time soon.

So I would start earlier, commit more to double bass, and keep with it.

Additionally, I would practice in a more purposeful way than I did back then. I would be more open to change and adjustment. I would have sought opportunities to play with others on DB, even if I couldn't find the same caliber of opportunities as I could on EB. I could have used more focus early on on posture and relaxing.

 

[Der Kontrabass]

This topic is timely for me. I am now teaching my son (6). Like many of you, I didn't start until my early teens and I think that starting so late relative to other instruments can mislead the teacher and student into focusing directly on the instrument rather than music fundamentals. If I could do it all over again, I would have devoted half my practice time to ear training and the study of music so that I had a better grasp of the music that I was playing. Now I find myself spending half my lessons with my son just concentrating on rhythm without even going near the bass. That sort of work is good at any age, I think.

 

[Higure420]

Hello Everyone!

I enjoyed reading everyone's stories. I started officially playing Double Bass at age 18. I came from a school with no Orchestra or any kind of training for String Bass. I had to look around for about 2-3 Months until I found my current teacher to help me audition and learn Classical Bass. It was literally a pain to audition during my last year at Grade 12 (My Audition Piece was La Cinquantaine). I had barely started started Simandl Book 1 about 1 month before my audition and barely reached 3rd position by the time my audition came. I look back on it now, I felt bad and kind of ashamed that I started so late but I could not really do much about. I came from a rough background and I couldn't travel far for a lesson. I was lucky enough to meet my current teacher who gave me free lessons and I kind of took after it. I offer free lessons to students in my town if they are determined on learning the Double Bass now
Skip ahead a year and a half, I just did my Sophomore recital and I am beginning the 1st Cello Suite "At Pitch" and I am working on Valse Miniature by Kouss and Bottesini's concerto in B minor. I still have many bad habits and my vibrato isn't that developed. I am slightly bummed that I am the first one from my town to major in Double Bass and even more slightly bummed that I am the only one at the moment for now. I now try to play around in my town s public high school to try and encourage other people to pick up the Double Bass and take lesson. I am filled with the constant desire to become a decent Classical and Jazz bassist and to come back to my hometown in the future and start a bass Studio. I also switched tunings! I am now a GDGC bassist and I enjoy it very much for Classical and Jazz.

If I could start over, I would look for an Orchestra program and develop all of the skills that I am struggling with right now such as tensing up and musical phrasing. Musical Phrasing is one thing I really struggle with. I also need to learn to relax more.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Nice thread, David, and nice to hear everyone's stories.

Since I started at age 35, it's tempting to say that I wish I had started younger and spent more time with the bow - and in a way, I wish I had (especially the part about the bow). But as things turned out, that would have precluded the time spent playing: french horn in the youth orchestra in middle school/early high school; rock/blues/fusion guitar in various bands as a teenager; classical guitar studies in early college; classical and jazz piano in college and grad school proper; a decade playing jazz piano professionally and supplementing with fretted electric bass for $$$, and with fretless electric bass for fun and love of the music. And I think that without those things, I would not have had the means, knowledge or the experience with great teachers of other instruments to be able to experience the great joy of largely teaching myself to play the double bass (with the occasional help of some really great players who were kind enough to guide me when I would ask for a one-off lesson).

So in the end, while my biggest regret about my current set of skills and experience is that I have not yet developed bow chops due to life being filled with other things (marriage to my current wife which started in the same year I took up DB, a great son who is now 12, good job teaching at a music school at the university level, etc), I wouldn't really change anything, because if I went back and changed anything to improve my bass playing, it would be at the expense of something which informed my bass playing or enriched my life in some other way. I really like lee's comment above, though, which said,

Additionally, I would practice in a more purposeful way than I did back then.

..but that's more of a comment on youth in my case than anything else, and again just a part of the learning process.

My "retirement plan", god willing and the creek don't rise, is to spend time learning to play with the bow and continuing my studies in classical piano when/if i am ever able to retire from teaching. If those days ever come, I hope to enjoy them immensely.

 

[MikeCanada]

Starting all over, I would balance engaging with and enjoying the instrument with technique, and also include musicianship things like listening to recordings, ear training, and some singing as well. I had a teacher who put a lot of emphasis on technique and fundamentals who I believe was aiming for "when you know how to play the instrument you can get to all the fun stuff" but it definitely didn't seem fun from the get go.

I would have sought out better teachers from the very beginning. I developed a lot of bad habits along my musical journey that were not caught and corrected early, which resulted in having to relearn technique years later down the road. My bow arm and left hand were disasters on both violin and bass, and I had more than one lesson where a teacher would look at me and say something to the effect of "I have no idea how/what you are doing, but we need to fix that." While heading straight to a major symphony principal or someone similar from the very beginning may be overkill, if I had found someone like a recent music school graduate, a semi-retired pro, or a freelancer all of which were available within a short drive from my small town, I could have progressed steadily through those years instead of having to take a step back and relearn technique.

After learning a few instruments to an intermediate level, I started picking up more and more and essentially self teaching. While I could get through the basics quite quickly, I inevitably ended up hitting technique roadblocks because I had no real guidance other than things like the Standard of Excellence books and music teachers who's experience on those instruments was limited to secondary instrument classes in university. Being musical does not mean you understand how all the instruments work, and I had to learn time and again that lessons were essential for the long term.

Besides just technique and developing my reading to a more advanced level, I wish I had spent more time on ear training, and learning to play by ear. To this day I am still pretty dreadful at it, and I think it is something that should be taught and encouraged from the beginning. Learning to read music is very important and some students develop a very good ear and get away without being a strong reader until it eventually catches up with them, but written music became a crutch very early on, and learning simple things like how to play a well known tune by ear, what a I IV V I (or any other) progression sounds like, etc. is something I am still trying to catch up on. I would also start improvisation much earlier, as I think it comes quite naturally with young students and beginners, and then becomes increasingly less natural as students learn all the rules and heavily lean on what is written in front of them.

As seems to be the theme of this thread, I do not regret my early musical life of the path I took to get to where I am. They were valuable experiences, and even though I spent a considerable amount of time focusing on instruments other than bass, those things did make me a better bassist. I would like to tell me 20 years ago that I'm going to end up a bassist so I would have spent a lot of that time that went to other instruments on building a better technical foundation on my instrument, but if we started down the road of "what would you have said to your younger self?" there are a lot of things I would lead with before I even mentioned the bass.

 

[Tim de Martino]

I AM at the beginning, so hearing all this is fantastic!

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Remyd]

So glad to see this come up! I think it's a good discussion.

I might mention that I had the opposite problem of many in this thread. I spent so much time playing in orchestras and listening to Ron Carter that I had no idea how to play music!

I studied through middle school and high school, then got a partial scholarship to a local school for bass performance and comp. Majored in music history and gigged 3x week through the first few years in college, then changed to business and cut the gigging back to 3x month, eventually losing all of my equipment to theft and swearing off the bass for 6 years. Came back to it a couple of years ago and couldn't be happier, but now I'm the bass player for a couple of Americana groups and a regular in the rotation at a blues jam. The difference between what I learned and what I play now is just insane. A classical education with jazz focus doesn't really do a lot with "popular" music. As a jazz pro (such as it was), I could blunder through anything with a piano part, but that's really not the same.

There are many, many things that I learned in the last 2 years that were absent from the first 20. Its much more about culture and little things than anything life changing. I don't have hours to write everything up, but someone should have shared this stuff.

One thing that really stood out was the "no sheet music" requirement. I sorta knew this was a thing based on seeing rock bands, but the jazz world is kinda insular and I had no idea it was de rigeur for *everybody*. Oftentimes in other genres nobody can even read music, so it wouldn't do any good anyhow. We need to teach kids how to memorize and internalize music quickly and effectively.

There's SO much improv and it's SO different than the jazz standby of "walk something chromatic until you get the changes". There is an anti-jazz and anti-classical bias amongst a large minority of musicians, so that strategy almost never works. There are also strong genre expectations that are different for whatever you're playing. Previously, I had no clue, but the more sit-ins I do, the more I realized I didn't learn how. 2 weeks in any of the advanced music classes of exploration of the parts of bluegrass and celtic and folk and latin and rock and country and dub and metal would have saved me an awfully lot of embarrassment as an adult. None of the standard methods for playing those are particularly difficult and it would have expanded my horizons quite a bit.

Another is the need to have a repitour of a couple hundred rehearsed licks and lines to bust out at any time, although you only have to learn them in one key. This wasn't a requirement in the jazz world, you just play a quick head of a standard and improv something have a bit of material. But in the popular vein, I constantly have to play iconic basslines to something-or-other or familiar turnarounds. There's a constant string of "do you know the *complexbassline* to *songyouneverheard* by *unfamilarartist* from *ajillionyearsago*" and dirty looks if you don't. And don't even get me started with the whole "lay down a groove" thing! There's no provision for learning how to deal with that type of situation, but it's not rocket science, and it should be in there.

Also the language is different which is something I should have known by the end of 10 years of classical bass education. Tone doesn't mean tone, it means timbre. Charts don't mean charts, they mean "lyrics with simplified chord symbols". Tunes aren't named tunes, they're named songs. Standards aren't standards, they're covers. Rehearsals are named practice and practice is named woodshedding. They aren't saxes and trumpets and bones, they're horns. A click isn't a click, it's a click-track. Chatter is what a frontman does with an audience, not what musicians do across the stage. A performance is closer to what the actors do on stage than what the orch does off stage. A drone is a pedal tone. There are a whole bunch of those.

Out of time, but looking forward to seeing what else people think ought to be included.

 

[Jason Hollar]

If I were to take a dip in the Musical Hot Tub Time Machine, I'd love to play on the 3-4 beater basses I started out on in high school & college just to see if they really are as horrible as I remember them!

If I had it to do all over, I would have done more research in trying to find an easier-playing instrument that was a better fit, size & sound-wise.

 

[rickwolff]

OK, I think it may be time for a little levity.

If I could go back to 'the beginning' I WOULD BE BORN RICH. Perhaps as Prince Nikolaus I. Esterházy (1714-1790) who was to become Joseph Haydn's patron and employer for nearly 30 years.

The prince enjoyed having his own personal composer, and he liked to play the Vialone (an early double bass) in Hayden compositions that sometimes included special solo notes played by the prince.

 

[DrayMiles]

Taking the time to actually learn a few tunes inside and out instead of trying to get quantity over quality. Oh, and of course... The stick of pain...

 

[Don Kasper]

I WOULD BE BORN RICH

Let's see - Mad Prince Rick is an 18th century millionaire with an obsession with all things "Doublebass". How many years is it before he's but a simple Pauper, reduced to stealing loaves of bread to survive, because he has squandered his vast family Fortune seeking the Holy Grail of "My Bass, Only Louder!!!"...constantly commissioning the Court Luthier(s) (well, the ones that he allows to LIVE!) to produce yet another "My Bass Only...."
"Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall, Who Has the Loudest Bass of ALL?" (M.P. Rick)
(levity intended.)
Thanks.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I'd pursue singing as seriously as playing the bass.
I'd say no to playing uninteresting music just for a buck.

 

[SAlcott]

I'd have a teacher.

 

[Steve Freides]

I can't say I'd have anything be any different. I started with jazz and classical guitar, majored in classical guitar in college at first, dropped out, and came back as a voice major, then continued with Masters and Doctoral degrees in choral conducting, and then taught theory at the Mannes College of Music in NYC for about 10 years. I started playing electric bass while in undergraduate school, which is also when I started learning to play the piano.

In my case, I was already getting bored with music while doing my doctoral degree and started playing with computers, and when I quit teaching at Mannes, it was to turn the part-time computer business I'd started into a full-time occupation, which I did for about 15 years. I was pretty good at that - wrote for magazines, spoke at conferences, and had an office and several full-time employees.

Then I got bored with that, and went back into music. A year with a fretless electric convinced me I could play upright without too much difficulty, and I began at age 52. (I'm 61 now.) I'm in my third years of private lessons with Jeremy McCoy and having a _great_ time learning to play the bass. My ambition is to be able to play at a level that would allow me to successfully audition for a college undergraduate program - I'm a long ways from that, mostly due to my poor bowing skills, but I practice, I continue to improve, and I couldn't be happier with how it's all gone.

This being the pedagogy forum, I will make one observation about how we learn, and I credit it to Stanley Yates, a classical guitarist who I had the pleasure to invite to the local community college when I was teaching there. Stanley actually asked it as a question: Do you think getting better should be focused on playing progressively more difficult material or on doing simple things as well as possible?

My answer: I think younger folks need the progressive material but, at my age and with the amount of musical experience I have behind me, I focus on doing simple things well. I play scales and arpeggios on my bass every day, and I keep trying to get better at them in every way - beautiful tone, perfect intonation, a variety of bowings and articulations, staying as relaxed in playing as I can be, and then trying to keep those qualities while gradually going faster. I play studies but I don't play a lot of actual repertoire, in part because I'd have to listen to me playing and I know better - my time for that will come.

Since I'm planning to live to be 120 years old, I figure I've still got a while to get the hang of all this.

-S-

 

[David Potts]

Steve, the Indooroopilly Chamber Orchestra in Bisbane, Queensland, has a 100 year old bass player who took up the bass when his trombone chops weakened. I feel there is hope for me yet. I'm only nearly 75!

 

[gerry grable]

I'd have a teacher.

You beat me to it! And you should have more respect for your elders. I'm 76

I would have found-- and stuck with-- a teacher.

 

[lurk]

If you're a jazz player and you think someone plays better than you do, I think it's mainly cause their rhythm is better than yours, so I wish I had paid more attention to that....maybe studied drums and learned to dance.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

So glad to see this come up! I think it's a good discussion.

I might mention that I had the opposite problem of many in this thread. I spent so much time playing in orchestras and listening to Ron Carter that I had no idea how to play music!

I studied through middle school and high school, then got a partial scholarship to a local school for bass performance and comp. Majored in music history and gigged 3x week through the first few years in college, then changed to business and cut the gigging back to 3x month, eventually losing all of my equipment to theft and swearing off the bass for 6 years. Came back to it a couple of years ago and couldn't be happier, but now I'm the bass player for a couple of Americana groups and a regular in the rotation at a blues jam. The difference between what I learned and what I play now is just insane. A classical education with jazz focus doesn't really do a lot with "popular" music. As a jazz pro (such as it was), I could blunder through anything with a piano part, but that's really not the same.

There are many, many things that I learned in the last 2 years that were absent from the first 20. Its much more about culture and little things than anything life changing. I don't have hours to write everything up, but someone should have shared this stuff.

One thing that really stood out was the "no sheet music" requirement. I sorta knew this was a thing based on seeing rock bands, but the jazz world is kinda insular and I had no idea it was de rigeur for *everybody*. Oftentimes in other genres nobody can even read music, so it wouldn't do any good anyhow. We need to teach kids how to memorize and internalize music quickly and effectively.

There's SO much improv and it's SO different than the jazz standby of "walk something chromatic until you get the changes". There is an anti-jazz and anti-classical bias amongst a large minority of musicians, so that strategy almost never works. There are also strong genre expectations that are different for whatever you're playing. Previously, I had no clue, but the more sit-ins I do, the more I realized I didn't learn how. 2 weeks in any of the advanced music classes of exploration of the parts of bluegrass and celtic and folk and latin and rock and country and dub and metal would have saved me an awfully lot of embarrassment as an adult. None of the standard methods for playing those are particularly difficult and it would have expanded my horizons quite a bit.

Another is the need to have a repitour of a couple hundred rehearsed licks and lines to bust out at any time, although you only have to learn them in one key. This wasn't a requirement in the jazz world, you just play a quick head of a standard and improv something have a bit of material. But in the popular vein, I constantly have to play iconic basslines to something-or-other or familiar turnarounds. There's a constant string of "do you know the *complexbassline* to *songyouneverheard* by *unfamilarartist* from *ajillionyearsago*" and dirty looks if you don't. And don't even get me started with the whole "lay down a groove" thing! There's no provision for learning how to deal with that type of situation, but it's not rocket science, and it should be in there.

Also the language is different which is something I should have known by the end of 10 years of classical bass education. Tone doesn't mean tone, it means timbre. Charts don't mean charts, they mean "lyrics with simplified chord symbols". Tunes aren't named tunes, they're named songs. Standards aren't standards, they're covers. Rehearsals are named practice and practice is named woodshedding. They aren't saxes and trumpets and bones, they're horns. A click isn't a click, it's a click-track. Chatter is what a frontman does with an audience, not what musicians do across the stage. A performance is closer to what the actors do on stage than what the orch does off stage. A drone is a pedal tone. There are a whole bunch of those.

Out of time, but looking forward to seeing what else people think ought to be included.

Never heard "boom stick" before.