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IMO, FOH has become grossly over-used and abused

My daughter is engaged to a metal head bass player. He is a talented musician who plays in two bands. I have yet to go to one of the serious metal band's gigs. My usual reasons are either because of location, time or because I just don't like their sound. The other does a mix of originals and some covers (they actually do occasional paid gigs). On several medium to small bar gigs I have gone to, I noticed they were overly loud and not clear. One gig was an all day multiple band fund raising gig in a small to medium bar. When I arrived part way through, I noticed the other bands sounded loud and mushy. When his band came on I noticed the same thing and then I saw to dude running FOH. All the bands were blaming the sound guy and while he was an easy scape goat, the responsibility ultimately falls on the "performers".

Here's my $0.02 on over-use and abuse of FOH. In the late 60's early seventies, our band was gigging 5 to 7 nights a week. My amp was a Kustom rolled and pleated with 2-15 cabinet, the keyboard player had a Leslie tone cabinet, the guitar player had come decent sized amp as well and the drummer didn't need to be mic'd. In all the club gigs we did, we never played into a PA. I have been asked how we were heard without FOH. The answer is "clearly".

Most of the gigs back then were in bars, clubs, school assembly halls, outdoors and in one case we performed on the outside terrace at the Shoreham Hotel in DC as opening act for a big name act. All of this was done without benefit or detriment of FOH. In the 70's; the venues were getting larger and bands saw how most big acts had a sound man controlling the sound and balance from out front. The larger venues created a larger need and everyone had to have a sound system and sound man, not, just a PA.

This brings us to today. Most bands have a PA (sound system) and sound person. You throw that into a small to medium venue and now we have the band's equipment and the FOH fighting for air. The end result is what sounds like LOUD mush. It also takes the db level to the point people don't enjoy "live" music as much. The best thing the sound person could do is turn-off all instrument feeds and make sure the vocals were clear or not allow the musicians to use on stage amplification and turn all control of sound to the person who is in the mix. Unfortunately, many sound people and DJs think the sound should be BOOMING like the systems they installed in their cars. Nothing like a trunk vibrating to scream ASSHAT. Loud is not better.

Our manager's husband was the business manager for AGVA. He kept reminding us that there were 10s of thousands of great musicians and singers; but fewer "performers". If we wanted to make money at this we needed to provide entertainment that was an enjoyable experience and caused people to want to pay to come back and see us again. LOUD and indistinguishable in a small venue creates the opposite effect. Don't blame the sound man for sounding poorly.
 
Well, there's some blame to be given to some sound guys, no doubt (coming from one that spent a lot of time in the pro trenches, but came around to start playing again...)

You are certainly right in that a lot of bands struggle with their onstage sound. But stage volume is a fact of life, unless the band has gone all in-ear monitors (as I have with two bands) and it's up to the band and the sound guy must work together to get a handle on the stage volume issues and present a good live sound.

It's nice to see the sound guy get some love in your post, but honestly, there's blame to share, too. I don't know what it is with sound guys, but they/we think that our job just comes naturally and no training or learning is necessary as do musicians and singers. I wound up spending a couple of thousand dollars over the years learning about the physics of sound, measuring sound, and manipulating sound from several sources and what electrical solutions do to acoustic problems (as in over-eqing to solve a problem causing by lobing, or sounds coupling at certain frequencies). Frankly, I still didn't get very good at it.

Here's how I put it to sound guys, especially the part-timers that I used to get calls for training. "Hey, what's your day job?" Well, I'm am accountant" "Okay, what would happen if I went in your office on Saturdays with no training and tried to do your clients' taxes?" It's really the same thing with properly setting up and sound system and doing a good mix. "But 90% of the time, we are in crappy little clubs or ballrooms with a small PA". A little research and learning will help even in these situations. Trust me.

All in all, point taken...:D
 
OldPlucker, the reason you didn't play with front of house support back in the 60s -70s was because PA systems sucked back then. PA gear is so much better now. A lot of the blame is the musicians themselves. A lot of them tune down so all the soundman has to work with is a wall of mush coming off the stage. Many of the younger soundmen out there have never listened to a good recording. All they know is overly compressed crap that they listened to on their car stereos. You know, the guys you could here coming down the street from 2 blocks away.
 
My daughter is engaged to a metal head bass player. He is a talented musician who plays in two bands. I have yet to go to one of the serious metal band's gigs. My usual reasons are either because of location, time or because I just don't like their sound. The other does a mix of originals and some covers (they actually do occasional paid gigs). On several medium to small bar gigs I have gone to, I noticed they were overly loud and not clear. One gig was an all day multiple band fund raising gig in a small to medium bar. When I arrived part way through, I noticed the other bands sounded loud and mushy. When his band came on I noticed the same thing and then I saw to dude running FOH. All the bands were blaming the sound guy and while he was an easy scape goat, the responsibility ultimately falls on the "performers".

Here's my $0.02 on over-use and abuse of FOH. In the late 60's early seventies, our band was gigging 5 to 7 nights a week. My amp was a Kustom rolled and pleated with 2-15 cabinet, the keyboard player had a Leslie tone cabinet, the guitar player had come decent sized amp as well and the drummer didn't need to be mic'd. In all the club gigs we did, we never played into a PA. I have been asked how we were heard without FOH. The answer is "clearly".

Most of the gigs back then were in bars, clubs, school assembly halls, outdoors and in one case we performed on the outside terrace at the Shoreham Hotel in DC as opening act for a big name act. All of this was done without benefit or detriment of FOH. In the 70's; the venues were getting larger and bands saw how most big acts had a sound man controlling the sound and balance from out front. The larger venues created a larger need and everyone had to have a sound system and sound man, not, just a PA.

This brings us to today. Most bands have a PA (sound system) and sound person. You throw that into a small to medium venue and now we have the band's equipment and the FOH fighting for air. The end result is what sounds like LOUD mush. It also takes the db level to the point people don't enjoy "live" music as much. The best thing the sound person could do is turn-off all instrument feeds and make sure the vocals were clear or not allow the musicians to use on stage amplification and turn all control of sound to the person who is in the mix. Unfortunately, many sound people and DJs think the sound should be BOOMING like the systems they installed in their cars. Nothing like a trunk vibrating to scream ASSHAT. Loud is not better.

Our manager's husband was the business manager for AGVA. He kept reminding us that there were 10s of thousands of great musicians and singers; but fewer "performers". If we wanted to make money at this we needed to provide entertainment that was an enjoyable experience and caused people to want to pay to come back and see us again. LOUD and indistinguishable in a small venue creates the opposite effect. Don't blame the sound man for sounding poorly.


Yeah... lots of idiots do not realize there is FOH support or they do not know how to get their monitors set, so they turn up their amps to practice level. This is especially common in metal.

People are stupid. Running everything through the FOH isn't.
 
The real problem is that folks believe any random punter can run sound so hire the cheapest possible (AKA "Will Mix for Beer" Joe).
:banghead:
Further issue is most metal (and many other) musicians are half deaf as are their "friends" so good sound isn't what they want (or are capable of appreciating) anyways...
 
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The real problem is that folks believe any random punter can run sound so hire the cheapest possible (AKA "Will Mix for Beer" Joe).
:banghead:
Further issue is most metal (and many other) musicians are half deaf as are their "friends" so good sound isn't what they want (or are capable of appreciating) anyways...

This ^^^^ (well, the first sentence, anyway. I don't want to bash other musicians, but hey...)
 
As a sound guy, I have turned down gig's due to the combination of performer and room. I can do either but not both. Wrong room for the act and knowing what was / is to come, I choose to punt. It makes no sense to me to take on a piece of work that I know will be too loud, feedback prone and gnarly sounding in general in spite of my best efforts. I hate turning work away but sometimes it's the better choice.
 
Well, in my opinion the problem is people don't get that you have to go either backline or FOH, not both at the same time. A lot of players think they have to go stupid loud on stage "to get my sound" and then there's not much the sound guy can do. If you have a good PA and good monitoring, and musicians and a sound guy that understands and respects this setup then the result can be great.
 
I suppose what triggered this is having been to several different events listening to live music and DJs and seeing how few people get the sound right. That being said I was at a bull roast in the fall where a fellow TB member's group was performing. That venue was moderately larger; but, whoever was doing the sound had it so it was enjoyable.
 
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Interesting thread. In my limited live gigging experience, the competition between modern powerful (dare I say oversized) amps and FOH means that bass guitar is reduced to just seismic thumping like a kick drum. No definition at all.
I've had the misfortune of coming across a few sound guys who think music is all about bass drum and bass. Sometimes to the extent that people almost become physically ill from the thumping low end. I had to leave a show once where I started getting nauseous from the continuous blows to the stomach, and this was outdoors. I can't imagine how many thousand Watts he poured into the subs.
 
Thanks to YouTube, players are better now than they were.

So, let's break live sound down into different scenarios, as one blanket statement will not apply to all bands or soundpersons.

It is pretty pointless to look to ascribe blame. I just don't think doing so leads to helpfull or objective points of view.
 
Lots of good points, I also dislike the loud mush mixes you get in most bars that have PA's that are too big for the room with crap speakers, crap monitors, overworked power amps and a board that's seen more beer than professional fingers anyway.
My 2 cents, as a bass player I usually give them a di or mic, make my amp sound good on stage, and then load up a loop on my looper and walk around making sure its not too loud. Then I put tape on my volume knob so no one messes with it.
As an amateur soundguy who works for beer, acknowledges my damaged ears, read a half decent book on sound, and downloaded some great apps for real time analysis, noise generation, and mixer tutorials, I always eq the room before the band is even there. Its not that hard to make a band sound clear, even given poopie equipment. Laziness is the downfall of the average bar soundguy, not inability.
I'm definitely a little baffled when a 10x20 bar has more than a couple speakers for vocals though. Makes me real nervous
 
I once played a club gig where the sound man turned off the mains because the organist was way too loud and the vocalist wanted so much monitor volume that the wedges were filling the room just fine.

My personal preference when running sound in clubs is that PA is for vocals and acoustic instruments first. Then if any particular instrument is too weak in the room, add a bit of it. Anything easily heard in the room from the stage doesn't need to be in the PA. Miking up everything is for large performance spaces, not tiny clubs. My only exception is when the desired SPL is higher than the stage amplification can deliver...in small rooms this is usually NOT a problem.

OT--best deaf soundman story: at one club gig the soundman said the bass amp was too loud, could I turn down. He repeated this request a few more times until I had the amp turned off. Then he told me it was still too loud :roflmao: I played the rest of the gig hearing what I could of myself from the mains bouncing off the back wall of the club.