Improving Equipment - where to start ?

[el murdoque]

Hi,
after buying a new Bass, i started thinking about my amplification, which needs some new components.
Right now, i have a Carlsbro Viper (100W 1x15") Combo for the smaller stuff and a Peavey Mark IV Top (1982) with a JBL 1x15" box. Luckily i have a mid 80s Trace Elliot 4x10" which isnt mine
but which i can use as much as i want. So with the band i use the
Peavey Top with the 4x10 and 1x15 speakers. I have the Gain around 3 and the master around 7 and my active bass set to 3/4 volume and the built in compressor will activate as soon as i pluck a note a little harder than 'very soft'. For my understanding, that compressor LED felt like a clip LED and i always tried to omit it's lighting up, but in the current setup, that is simply not possible.

I have some sales pending and will get my hands on some cash in the near future and i'd like to get rid of that problem.
If money wasn't an issue, i think i'd go with the TC Electronics RH 750 top and 3 2x10 speakers (or maybe 2 2x10 and 1 2x12),
but i don't want to spend well over two grand on that.
Also, i'd like to quit using the trace elliot box that isn't mine as soon as possible.

So maybe i could sell the carlsbro and get one of those sweet little tops that weigh next to nothing and a 2x10" speaker to start with and hook that up with either the 4x10 or the 1x15 when practising. Then i could use the top + 2x10 for the small gigs
and had to carry less than with the carlsbro and i can add speakers at leisure to fit my needs.

I'm asking myself now wether i should go with a cheaper model
and buy a box as well or if i should wait till i get more money and go with a more expensive amp and then start saving for new speakers.

Are the Amps in the €300,- region any good? Especially the TC BH250 or the Markbass blackline ?

My Peavey Top claims to have an output of 240W @ 4 Ohms
and since the compressor's constantly running and the Master is up to 7 there's absolutely no headroom left - but i have no comparsion wether this particular amp is a powerful one or not.

 

[5 Wire]

It sounds like you are overdriving the input on that poor old head. Still, those babies put out serious power so maybe it's just giving up.

There are a lot of good amps out there but, there are a ton of different preamp configurations. Go play stuff.

 

[el murdoque]

i just googled the Manual (Invalid Link Removed) and found out that the input labels are misleading. High input does not mean this is the input for
active basses, they are meant to be plugged into low input. unfortunately, this jack is broken.
I doubt this amp will ever give up. it came to me after some serious abuse and i haven't been gentle, too. but it just keeps pumping out. i'll try to either fix the low input jack or set the gain even lower and the post even higher.

 

[pica]

Asking us which amp you should get is like asking us what car you should get. It all depends on your need and finances. All I can say is find some amps in your budget and try them out if possible. No two amps sound exactly the same. The choice is up to you. Best of luck

P.S. I'm going through the same situation myself so I know your dilemma.

 

[tbirdsp]

Yes, so many options.

This brings back memories though - I had a Mk IV head with a Peavey 215 bottom that I bought new in '82. I used passive basses. That thing could get insanely loud, I never came close to using all of it's volume (never had PA support for the bass in those days either).

 

[el murdoque]

since you used the same amp - did you mind the compressor kicking in? as said, i always tried to omit that LED lighting up
because it felt like it's too much when that happens.
i prefer to go easy on the amp.
what i like is a dry, sober sound. I own a SWR LA12 combo (60W, 1x12") which i bought for practising at home. It basically was the
smallest combo i could get that had an acceptable sound with a 5 string. i love the sound of that lil thing.

 

[ChuckTrucks]

Since I only plan on living once on this great Earth, there is too little time to worry about whether I'm spending 500 bucks, 1000 bucks, 2000 bucks, or 4000 bucks on a bass rig.

I think about it like this.

Do I have a job? Yes. Do I have a family to support? No. Job Security? Yes.

Amp purchase? No budget necessary.

 

[tbirdsp]

since you used the same amp - did you mind the compressor kicking in? as said, i always tried to omit that LED lighting up
because it felt like it's too much when that happens.
i prefer to go easy on the amp.

My memory of 30 years ago isn't that good

I played a gig last night with my TC BG250, and it was plenty loud with master on 5 and sounded good. Passive 4-string Jazz, and I did have it through the PA too.

 

[cableguy]

Is the amp clipping when you use the JBL cab, the Trace cab or either? The reason I ask is if the JBL cab is only a 8ohm cab you're pushing only about 120W into it. Those old peaveys are pretty much bullit-proof. Get the jack fixed and see what happens. If it sounds good look at another cab when you run out of headroom. I don't know what kind of used equiptment is available around you, but that will be your best bargin if on a budget.

 

[nashvillebill]

How about another option--fixing the Peavey head so it works properly?

Fixing the input jack shouldn't cost much, cleaning the controls with Deoxit isn't a bad idea either. That head should give you a pretty good amount of volume with a 4x10 cab.

Using both the 4x10 and 1x15 cab at the same time may be part of your problem. What's the impedance on those cabs? If combined they are less than 4 ohms, the amp will hit the DDT compression quicker.

And here's another possibility: early JBL speakers are REVERSE POLARITY compared to the new convention. So the 15 is out of phase compered to the 4x10, resulting in weak anemic lows. Modern convention has the speaker cone moving outward when a + signal is applied to the + terminal on the speaker. The JBL will move the speaker cone backwards when a + signal is applied to the + terminal. To test this, put a 9 volt battery on the plug of your speaker cable, and put the tip of the speaker cable to the + post of the battery; the ring of the plug will contact the - post of the battery. Watch the movement of the speaker cones as you do this. If the JBL move s backwards and the Peaveys move forward, reverse the wires where they plug onto the JBL speaker.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Very good points from Nashvillebill.

If you can, check if your active bass triggers the compressor in a similar way on another amp. It could be that the bass signal is simply too hot. Also, if you can try a passive bass into the Peavey, it might help determine if there is an issue in the pre-amp. For instance, maybe the gain pot needs to be replaced. Some log pots, if defective, essentially give you full volume at a low setting. Try opening the master volume all the way and just use the gain and your instrument levels to control your volume. See if it still overloads the compressor with the gain set at 1 or 2.

 

[el murdoque]

Is the amp clipping when you use the JBL cab, the Trace cab or either? The reason I ask is if the JBL cab is only a 8ohm cab you're pushing only about 120W into it. Those old peaveys are pretty much bullit-proof. Get the jack fixed and see what happens. If it sounds good look at another cab when you run out of headroom. I don't know what kind of used equiptment is available around you, but that will be your best bargin if on a budget.

I didn't try with the Trace Elliot alone, but with the JBL. I think it was slightly less clipping then, which seems natural - since i had it running with higher master/gain then due to less speaker surface and more ohms.
But if 4x10 + 1x15 isn't enough, something has to go - i won't add more cabs to that even if the amp will go down to 2 ohms.


I bought the MkIV back in '94 and used it a lot since then.
But i just replaced my 1996 Bass with a new one and that got me a few steps ahead in no time, i haven't been playing this much for ages and i spend more time with the band, having insane ammounts of fun - and i just feel like it's time to
replace the amp, or at least some parts, as well.

And as i said in my initial post, i'd like it small and light,
but with direct, dry and sober sound with a good lowend to
really bring out the low B of my fivestrings.


After some research on the local market, i could get my hands on a TC BH500 for roughly $280 and a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 for about $370. i like the features on the TC (and it's cheap) - but that is a fullsize amp at the full weight. About the Genz Benz i only know that the LED's are insanely bright, but that can be fixed with a bit of tape.
So how about one of these amps with a TC BC212 Cab, later
to be followed by either another BC212 or a BC210.

Just for insanity's sake, i would be able to connect the Mk IV to the JBL cab and use it together with the new components for bi-amping if it becomes necessary - maybe some bridge nearby needs to be knocked down or something ...

 

[el murdoque]

How about another option--fixing the Peavey head so it works properly?

Fixing the input jack shouldn't cost much, cleaning the controls with Deoxit isn't a bad idea either. That head should give you a pretty good amount of volume with a 4x10 cab.

Using both the 4x10 and 1x15 cab at the same time may be part of your problem. What's the impedance on those cabs? If combined they are less than 4 ohms, the amp will hit the DDT compression quicker.

And here's another possibility: early JBL speakers are REVERSE POLARITY compared to the new convention. So the 15 is out of phase compered to the 4x10, resulting in weak anemic lows. Modern convention has the speaker cone moving outward when a + signal is applied to the + terminal on the speaker. The JBL will move the speaker cone backwards when a + signal is applied to the + terminal. To test this, put a 9 volt battery on the plug of your speaker cable, and put the tip of the speaker cable to the + post of the battery; the ring of the plug will contact the - post of the battery. Watch the movement of the speaker cones as you do this. If the JBL move s backwards and the Peaveys move forward, reverse the wires where they plug onto the JBL speaker.

That sounds like some useful advice. I got this JBL for free when another band wanted to toss it into the trash and i literally dragged it back in out of the rain, connected it to my amp, checked if it still worked and claimed it as mine.
It's vintage looking, with silver net covering the front and it's a lot higher than wide, at first i thought it may be a 2x12, but when holding a flashlight to the front, i found a lone 15" speaker.
I'm pretty sure the JBL runs at 8 ohms while i have no clue what the Trace Elliot runs. I'll need to check that.

The output of my preferred bass is quite high (that's why i run it between 2/3 and 3/4 master vol), but i also play a vintage P-Bass (with unknown Pickup, i guess it's Dimarzio)
over that setup and when i plug that in, i have to take out a little gain and master since the passive bass only works when set to full volume.

 

[will33]

+1 to fixup up what you've got first....including the volume pot on that P-bass. That, the input jack and/or gain pot on the amp are pretty inexpensive fixes. Then see how you like that Peavey after you find a 2nd JBL 15 to run with it.

New gear is cool and all but if you're on a tight budget, your current stuff could be gotten into good shape for very little money.

+1 to checking the polarity of all your various speakers in comparison to the JBL.

 

[el murdoque]

sorry for leaving so much room for misinterpreting, english is not my native language. when i wrote the P works only on full volume i meant that it's a passive bass that only sounds well when the vol pot is all the way up. that old bass has had a complete fixup recently and works perfectly.

 

[badboy1984]

TC BH500 with 2x BC210 or 3x BC210.

I use BH500 with 2x BC212 but the stack is very loud and powerful already for my stuff. If i add another BC212 to make it 6x12 it would be very overkill.

I'm sure the TC head can go down to 2ohms load because those BC212/210 cabs is 8oms load and TC website say you can hook 3 of them.

 

[CL400Peavey]

TC BH500 with 2x BC210 or 3x BC210.

I use BH500 with 2x BC212 but the stack is very loud and powerful already for my stuff. If i add another BC212 to make it 6x12 it would be very overkill.

I'm sure the TC head can go down to 2ohms load because those BC212/210 cabs is 8oms load and TC website say you can hook 3 of them.

No that head is not 2 Ohm stable. The TC cabs are nominally 8 Ohms, and the manual says you can attach 3 of the specific tc cabs to the amp.

 

[will33]

sorry for leaving so much room for misinterpreting, english is not my native language. when i wrote the P works only on full volume i meant that it's a passive bass that only sounds well when the vol pot is all the way up. that old bass has had a complete fixup recently and works perfectly.

Oh, OK. Are you handy with tools? I would open up the amp and check if the low input jack is broken or if some wires have come loose and need to be re-soldered. Also make sure to check the polarity of all the speakers you use following NashvilleBill's instructions. If the polarity is wrong, you are missing out on a LOT of volume. Cleaning all the pots, jacks, and switches is a good idea too just because the amp is old.

Those amps are known for sounding quite loud, but, at 4ohms, you're probably working with something around 180 watts there. It might just be all she has to give but make sure everything is working properly before you make that decision.

 

[badboy1984]

No that head is not 2 Ohm stable. The TC cabs are nominally 8 Ohms, and the manual says you can attach 3 of the specific tc cabs to the amp.

In that case how does it sound logic? I know is best to use TC cabs because TC know the full exact spec of the cabs they make where as they don't know other brand so thats why they not promoting the head as 2ohms to be protect them self? infact they say you can use 3x TC cabs.

The head is rated as 4ohm load and the BC210/212 is rated as 8ohms load.

two BC210/212 will give you 4ohm load.

So three BC210-210 will give you .........?

 

[will33]

No that head is not 2 Ohm stable. The TC cabs are nominally 8 Ohms, and the manual says you can attach 3 of the specific tc cabs to the amp.

+1

From the BGM review, their DCR is up around 7ohms which would make them something more like a nominal 10 ohm speaker. Running 3 should be OK but not 4. With more common 8ohm speakers that dip down to 5.some-odd ohms, 2 is still the limit.