Improvisation Frustration.

[TuneSalad666]

Well, I am not the most well versed in musical theory so if I need to come up with a solo I would go by intuition and ear thinking melody supported by the little theoretical knowledge I do have about chords and scales.

So, yes, think melody, eventual try to come up with ideas for the solo by singing it first and then use chord and scale notes that goes well with what is played.

No need to overthink it, in fact that will most likely come in the way of actually playing, all you really need to do is to think melody.

 

[Blissful_Lad]

I never listen to jazz...

Look at it this way...

"I never listen to French language speakers, so why can't I speak French?"

Then of course I get asked to take a solo – I decline and say I will get one ready for next time. So I go home and work on a solo, write one out and practice it, following the changes. Then at the next jam I get my chance to play and knock out the solo.

To which I get 'Why are you trying to follow the changes – just solo in Eb blues'

To which I reply 'Ok, but why does that work?'

And they say 'Just listen to it, it sounds good right?'

Yes, it does. But if I'm just going to solo in Eb blues I'd rather jam out some funk lines and then take a solo. Rather than do walking bass and then take a solo.

So, what am I missing here? Do people just solo in some basic scale/mode regardless of the harmony? Or is it a mix of both? How do I go about incorporating harmonic elements into a solo? Or should I just shut up and play the Eb blues scale and be done with it?

Thanks!

You're probably not soloing in a convincing language. Maybe your solos sound like Google Translator. You need to listen a LOT. You have a lot of catching up to do. This does NOT happen in a few weeks, or a couple months. More like a lifetime, and you still may not get good at it.

If you aren't interested (passionately) in listening to jazz, then you have your answer to why you can't solo.

"How do I go about incorporating harmonic elements into a solo?" There are NO answers via a forum response.

Successful jazz improvisors do not just play an Eb Blues Scale over Eb Blues. They may, occasionally.

 

[dreamadream99]

Successful jazz improvisors do not just play an Eb Blues Scale over Eb Blues.

That is quite true. Good point.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Just a usual Saturday morning question from grouchy WUTP.
Why do we have so many "frustrated" improvisers - bass players with so many books, tutorials, YouTube videos, free and/or paid courses on/about improvisation?
But...
Maybe, tomorrow someone will write that "one and only" book/tutorial on improvisation and, after that, all questions will be solved, all frustrations will be gone, and there will be peace on Earth...drool

 

[MalcolmAmos]

........
"How do I go about incorporating harmonic elements into a solo?" There are NO answers via a forum response. Successful jazz improvisors do not just play an Eb Blues Scale over Eb Blues. They may, occasionally.

Dirt simple answer. Melody comes from scale notes. Harmony comes from chord tones. So if you want to play melodically use the notes of a scale and try to duplicate some of the tune. If you want to play harmonically use the notes of the active chord. For example with a Cmaj7 chord it's notes will be the 1-3-5-7 scale degrees of the C major scale. So, roots (1's) first then a 5, then an 8 which is just the root in the next octave, could round out your bass line - if there is still room. Most of us had to settle for roots, then add a 5, then add an 8 and if the music is still giving you some room add the last 5 for a 1-5-8-5 generic bass line... Or get as many notes of the chord into your bass line as the song will allow. Just roots work fine - right at first. Being able to insert the correct 3 and 7 (1-3-5-7) will add value. Jazz will use a full chord tone, we mortals settle somewhere between the 1-5 and 8.

Now, as chord tones are made from the notes of the scale and all scale notes will sound good with the other scale notes, as long as they are all from the same scale - you can combine scale notes and chord notes...... If you are playing harmonically using the notes found in chords, aka, chord tones, they will be the 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 and if you wanted to slip in a 6 as a passing note, I bet it would not clash.

Of course if we play everything in scale/chord tone order it will sound like a scale/chord tone. Experiment and mix the order up.

One thing to watch out for is the 2 and 4 in a harmonic bass line. As chord tones are made from the notes of the chord, about the only chords that will have a 2 or 4 in their makeup will be sus2 and sus4 chords, and how many of those do you run up on? Leave the 2 and 4 out of your harmonic bass lines for right now. Melodically they make good passing notes, help yourself.

Have fun.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Dirt simple answer. Melody comes from scale notes. Harmony comes from chord tones. So if you want to play melodically use the notes of a scale. If you want to play harmonically use the notes of the active chord. For example with a Cmaj7 chord it's notes will be the 1-3-5-7 scale degrees of the C major scale. So, roots (1's) first then a 5, then an 8 which is just the root in the next octave, could round out your bass line - if there is still room. Most of us had to settle for roots, then add a 5, then add an 8 and if the music is still giving you some room add the last 5 for a 1-5-8-5 generic bass line... Or get as many notes of the chord into your bass line as the song will allow. Just roots work fine - right at first. being able to insert the correct 3 and 7 will add value.

Now, as chord tones are made from the notes of the scale and all scale notes will sound good with the other scale notes, as long as they are all from the same scale - you can combine scale notes and chord notes...... If you are playing harmonically using the notes found in chords, aka, chord tones, they will be the 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 and if you wanted to slip in a 6 as a passing note, I bet it would not clash.

Of course if we play everything in scale/chord tone order it will sound like a scale/chord tone. Experiment and mix the order up.

One thing to watch out for is the 2 and 4 in a harmonic bass line. As chord tones are made from the notes of the chord, about the only chords that will have a 2 or 4 in their makeup will be sus2 and sus4 chords, and how many of those do you run up on? Leave the 2 and 4 out of your harmonic bass lines for right now. Melodically they make good passing notes, help yourself.

Have fun.

Here is what I have learned from your long post about improvisation(!!!)
.
Settle on Root with some 5ths.
Be careful about slipping into "passing" 6th in Cmaj7.
Leave out (!) the 2nd.
And so on...

 

[JRA]

not listening to a lot of jazz is fine. not listening at all, for ideas, could be a problem for those wanting to expand their solo chops. reading about it (soloing) won't take you farther than listening to it. and listening to it won't take you farther than playing it.

 

[thewildest]

All, Looking for some advice around what to do with improvisation.

To which I get 'Why are you trying to follow the changes – just solo in Eb blues' To which I reply 'Ok, but why does that work?'

While you got lots of good advice, I didn't find a complete answer to your question; practicing (as in trying unti you get it), or listening to Jazz (as understanding the possibilities) will not get you there. Knowing basic music theory will, and it will apply to all styles and all instruments.

To answer your question, superposing the notes of a scale (C major scale, for example) generates chords. You superpose notes by adding "thirds" and generate triads and tetrads. The C major scale generates these triads: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and Bø. If you superpose 4 notes, you get C7M, Dm7, Em7, F7M, G7, Am7 and Bø7.

If the song, for example, has the chords C and Am, you can just play the scale of C major over, as it includes the notes that built these 2 chords. You can "stay" in C and it will work well. This way, while a song stays within the same tonality, you can improvise over the same scale. Once the song modulates to another tonality, you should move to whatever scales groups the next set of chords.

Now, once you get past this starting point, you will see that there are all sorts of scales that generate sometimes the same chords, that will open up your phrasing. if you play G7, you will discover you can play the scales of C Major, CMinor Harmonic, C minor melodic, G#/B/D/F diminished, G/A/B/C#/Eb/F whole-tone... and many more.

Then you will discover that any note can be played against any chord, if it goes well in the context of the song, and if you like the "tension" that inflicts in that chord.

Check the circle of 5ths, triads, tetrads and master that, you'll see how all this becomes clear.

I hope this helps,

 

[nonohmic]

While you got lots of good advice, I didn't find a complete answer to your question; practicing (as in trying unti you get it), or listening to Jazz (as understanding the possibilities) will not get you there. Knowing basic music theory will, and it will apply to all styles and all instruments.

To answer your question, superposing the notes of a scale (C major scale, for example) generates chords. You superpose notes by adding "thirds" and generate triads and tetrads. The C major scale generates these triads: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and Bø. If you superpose 4 notes, you get C7M, Dm7, Em7, F7M, G7, Am7 and Bø7.

If the song, for example, has the chords C and Am, you can just play the scale of C major over, as it includes the notes that built these 2 chords. You can "stay" in C and it will work well. This way, while a song stays within the same tonality, you can improvise over the same scale. Once the song modulates to another tonality, you should move to whatever scales groups the next set of chords.

Now, once you get past this starting point, you will see that there are all sorts of scales that generate sometimes the same chords, that will open up your phrasing. if you play G7, you will discover you can play the scales of C Major, CMinor Harmonic, C minor melodic, G#/B/D/F diminished, G/A/B/C#/Eb/F whole-tone... and many more.

Then you will discover that any note can be played against any chord, if it goes well in the context of the song, and if you like the "tension" that inflicts in that chord.

Check the circle of 5ths, triads, tetrads and master that, you'll see how all this becomes clear.

I hope this helps,

Thanks! This is seems like the direction I need to go. This is good info. I just bought Dan Haerles Jazz Language book and I plan to sit and go through that page by page to get this kind of theory under my belt.

It's funny..i'm a research chemist so my career is built on difficult concepts; but for some reason music theory has never stuck. I think because i'm trying to make it more complicated than it actually is maybe?? Anyways hopefully in the next little bit i can make it stick.

Appreciate the insight!

 

[nonohmic]

if you play G7, you will discover you can play the scales of C Major, CMinor Harmonic, C minor melodic, G#/B/D/F diminished, G/A/B/C#/Eb/F whole-tone... and many more.

Ok so while we're here, this is where I get lost. I get that you can play C major over G7, but why would G# diminished work for example? doesn't that sharpened G clash?

Also C harmonic minor? doesn't the b3 and b6 clash?

Or are these things just adding 'color'?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

G7, but why would G# diminished work for example? doesn't that sharpened G clash?

That b9 is an added tension note to G7.
Read here.
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Can you be a bit clearer how these concepts apply to blues in Eb?

I did not see any relation to Blues in Eb.

 

[nonohmic]

Can you be a bit clearer how these concepts apply to blues in Eb?

Blues in Eb was just an example. These concepts he explained are nor related to it.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Also C harmonic minor? doesn't the b3 and b6 clash?

Let's look at G7 and C harmonic minor.
Here is the C harmonic minor scale with clearly highlighted G7 chord notes.
Do you see how "diatonically" that scale fits the G7 chord? (or vice-versa).
That Ab note would be the b9 of the G7 chord.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's read the following blog:

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"For such a foundational element of America's music, there's a surprising amount of confusion as to what a blue note is exactly. So allow me to clear it up: a blue note is a microtonal pitch in between a note from the Invalid Link Removed and a neighboring note from the Invalid Link Removed.

Here's a guide to the blue notes in the key of C.

• C major scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B
• C blues scale: C, E-flat, F, F-sharp, G, B-flat
• C major plus C blues: C, D, E-flat, E, F, F-sharp, G, A, B-flat, B

There are three notes from the blues scale not found in the major scale, in bold above:

• E-flat — the flat third
• F-sharp — the sharp fourth
• B-flat — the flat seventh

The flat third and seventh give the blues scale its tragic minor-key feeling. The very dissonant sharp fourth makes the blues unsettling and dark. Some people commonly refer to these non-major scale notes as blue notes. That's not right — they're blues scale notes that still fall on the piano keys. The blue notes fall between the piano keys, between each blues scale note and its closest major-scale neighbor.

In the key of C, there are blue notes between:

• D and E-flat
• E-flat and E
• F and F-sharp
• F-sharp and G
• A and B-flat
• B-flat and B

To play a blue note on guitar, like John Lee Hooker does, you bend the strings, making them go sharp."

 

[Wasnex]

Let's read the following blog:

Invalid Link Removed

"For such a foundational element of America's music, there's a surprising amount of confusion as to what a blue note is exactly. So allow me to clear it up: a blue note is a microtonal pitch in between a note from the Invalid Link Removed and a neighboring note from the Invalid Link Removed.

Here's a guide to the blue notes in the key of C.

• C major scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B
• C blues scale: C, E-flat, F, F-sharp, G, B-flat
• C major plus C blues: C, D, E-flat, E, F, F-sharp, G, A, B-flat, B

There are three notes from the blues scale not found in the major scale, in bold above:

• E-flat — the flat third
• F-sharp — the sharp fourth
• B-flat — the flat seventh

The flat third and seventh give the blues scale its tragic minor-key feeling. The very dissonant sharp fourth makes the blues unsettling and dark. Some people commonly refer to these non-major scale notes as blue notes. That's not right — they're blues scale notes that still fall on the piano keys. The blue notes fall between the piano keys, between each blues scale note and its closest major-scale neighbor.

In the key of C, there are blue notes between:

• D and E-flat
• E-flat and E
• F and F-sharp
• F-sharp and G
• A and B-flat
• B-flat and B

To play a blue note on guitar, like John Lee Hooker does, you bend the strings, making them go sharp."

Nice! The in-between/micro tonal aspect is usually what the discussion lacks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Nice! The in-between/micro tonal aspect is usually what the discussion lacks.

Could we have the Great BB King without bending?

 

[40Hz]

One thing I'd suggest to help with your improvisational skills is either sing - or learn to sing if you think you can't. (You can btw. Sure, great singers are rare. But the number of people in the world with absolutely zero vocal ability is extremely small.)

When I was still studying jazz in my early days of bass playing, a truly fine jazzer said a good way to think about improvising was to approach it as if you were singing through your instrument. Because if you can hear the music in your head, and feel it in your body, all that remains to be done is practice your instrument to the point of where it's enough a part of you that you don't need to think about playing it. You just play the music that's already inside you.

He said theory and analysis are all well and good. And important to know. But they're just tools to help you better understand the mechanics of music. They're not the music itself any more than the alphabet, the rules of grammar, and a large vocabulary are great literature. They're just the tools and skills used to produce it. They're the scaffolding around a building when you're erecting it. They're not the actual product.

He also said too many budding musicians get too hung up on that scaffolding and fail to appreciate it's only there to produce the real thing. They've mistaken the process and the tools for the goal - which is to create a finished work.

So by all means focus on theory up to a point. But also realize theory is not the actual music. People who try to "play theory" end up sounding formulaic.

In the meantime, practice your instrument.

And above all - be sure to sing.

Luck!

 

[thewildest]

Ok so while we're here, this is where I get lost. I get that you can play C major over G7, but why would G# diminished work for example? doesn't that sharpened G clash?

Also C harmonic minor? doesn't the b3 and b6 clash?

Or are these things just adding 'color'?

These weird scales (diminished, whole tone) are interesting for the sonic pattern they create... they never conclude. In their case, superposing the notes of their scales will make you mostly land notes within the structure of the chord, along with a bunch of other weird notes. In that case, what is important there is mostly the sequence/path you take to land on the note you want.

C harmonic minor is all "legal", its notes contain all the notes needed to build G7. Of course, it will sound with a very different character than playing the C major scale. Once you master both, you can start phrases in one and end in the other. The scales are only "known paths" of expression, the important thing here is to bring to sound what your brain is projecting.

Most improvisers launch a sequence on a scale they know, and once they lock into a place they want to "work on" they go into "expression mode"; if thing start going too far from the idea, they lock-back-in a scale or aprpeggio and they start again.

Great improvisers do this seamlessly and not even thinking about this.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

................ So, what am I missing here? Do people just solo in some basic scale/mode regardless of the harmony? Or is it a mix of both? How do I go about incorporating harmonic elements into a solo? Or should I just shut up and play the Eb blues scale and be done with it? Thanks!

How do you improvise? With out some theory background, good luck. OK dirt simple:

Music sounds good when we use the notes found in one key. That alone makes it doable, still hard, but doable. So..... Stay in key. No it is not necessary to know everything that could work. What could work comes later. How much later? Depends on how much time you spend building a dirt simple understanding of how music thinks.

The music I play has an established tune. Start there. Then improvise your interpretation of that tune. Augment what has already been written.

If you can not play the tune, good luck with improvising anything that sounds anything like the tune. That leaves you with scales or chord tone over and over till it's time to give the lead back. That's one way, but, IMO you gotta get the tune in there somewhere.

Sing the tune and see what your fingers can do with that information. Again a little theory study will go a long way.....

...Theory works on any instrument - here is a book I found helpful; JoyOfImprov, book 1. It's a Hal Leonard book by Dave Frank & John Amaral. It's not a bass book, it's a theory book for any instrument. What is in it you can use with any instrument. Because of that bass tabs are not shown, however, standard notation and scale degree numbers are shown.

As I think in scale degree numbers anyway I found this book to have value. Here is an example:

Over a Cmaj7 chord you could use the following scale degrees of the C major scale: 137, 1357, 3561, 3571,..... 369, 3569, 5613, ...... 5713, 7135, or 7935. When you understand why that works, you can take it over any chord. Major's have the 3 & 7, minors have the b3 & b7. The following Cm7 chord example implies playing the notes of the C natural minor scale as your base, i.e. 1-2 b3-4-5-b6-b7. So using the natural minor box pattern the following does work.

Cm7 chord is shown as: 137, 13117, 1357..... 1457, 3571, 3679,,,,,5713, 7135, 7935. Book # 2 goes into more detail.

Have fun.