In Ears and Hearing Loss

[eJake]

I do not use in ears but I love the idea of no monitors on the stage. However, they say that earbud style headphones are the worst for causing hearing loss. It seems logical that having the monitors closer to the ears would be more harmful. I'm not suggesting that the purpose of in ears is to mitigate hearing loss but I am very curious if the technology has been tested under that lens.

Anyone have any comments or suggested reading?

 

[carsonchilders]

The difference is the isolation from the very loud room sound allows you to keep your in ear volume at a much more comfortable level. I use Future Sonics, which specifically were made to help musicians hear better at lower volumes. The biggest part is the seal in your ear. Custom molds make a world of difference.

 

[s0c9]

I do not use in ears but I love the idea of no monitors on the stage. However, they say that earbud style headphones are the worst for causing hearing loss. It seems logical that having the monitors closer to the ears would be more harmful. I'm not suggesting that the purpose of in ears is to mitigate hearing loss but I am very curious if the technology has been tested under that lens.

Anyone have any comments or suggested reading?

There's ALL kinds of info on IEM usage in this forum...
Sure, if you krank monitors - be they wedges or earbuds - you CAN damage your hearing over time.
The WHOLE point behind IEM's is that you get a far better [constant] mix, and get to keep the volume DOWN because the sound is closer to your ears. One of the "benefits" is that lower volumes will do far LESS (or no damage) to your hearing, unlike kranked wedges on a loud stage. They CAN be abused tho'

I have always recommended triple (or better) drivers (universal or custom) as single drivers tend to "distort" the audio, due to physical limitations of pushing the entire audio spectrum thru a single speaker over time. This in turn causes ear fatigue which cause you to turn up the volume so you can hear better, and so goes the vicious cycle, leading to hearing damage.
If you have ANY kind of ringing in your ears after a gig.. your listening levels were too high!
Triple drivers split the audio spectrum so each driver focuses on specific frequency ranges and delivers that range more efficiently. Less distortion, less fatigue and better quality audio.
Still. garbage in won't help. You need a decent mix in all of this.

Also.. it is IMPERATIVE that if you are using a WIRED IEM system that you have brick-wall LIMITER [somewhere] ahead of your buds. Most wireless IEM systems (I say "most" because I don't know that "all" do) have built-in limiters. The cheaper units are fixed, and the more expensive units have adjustable [threshold] limiters.

In conclusion, I would NOt say that IEM are intended to "mitigate hearing loss", but if one gets educated on the topic and buys decent gear, it can help with that.
Do NOT cheap out on buds or wireless gear.

 

[carsonchilders]

There's ALL kinds of info on IEM usage in this forum...
Sure, if you krank monitors - be they wedges or earbuds - you CAN damage your hearing over time.
The WHOLE point behind IEM's is that you get a far better [constant] mix, and get to keep the volume DOWN because the sound is closer to your ears. One of the "benefits" is that lower volumes will do far LESS (or no damage) to your hearing, unlike kranked wedges on a loud stage. They CAN be abused tho'

I have always recommended triple (or better) drivers (universal or custom) as single drivers tend to "distort" the audio, due to physical limitations of pushing the entire audio spectrum thru a single speaker over time. This in turn causes ear fatigue which cause you to turn up the volume so you can hear better, and so goes the vicious cycle, leading to hearing damage.
If you have ANY kind of ringing in your ears after a gig.. your listening levels were too high!
Triple drivers split the audio spectrum so each driver focuses on specific frequency ranges and delivers that range more efficiently. Less distortion, less fatigue and better quality audio.
Still. garbage in won't help. You need a decent mix in all of this.

Also.. it is IMPERATIVE that if you are using a WIRED IEM system that you have brick-wall LIMITER [somewhere] ahead of your buds. Most wireless IEM systems (I say "most" because I don't know that "all" do) have built-in limiters. The cheaper units are fixed, and the more expensive units have adjustable [threshold] limiters.

In conclusion, I would NOt say that IEM are intended to "mitigate hearing loss", but if one gets educated on the topic and buys decent gear, it can help with that.
Do NOT cheap out on buds or wireless gear.

I agree with everything you've said EXCEPT I will fight to the death over how great my future Sonics sound. When moving from Westone's to them it was like listening to music with a subwoofer for the first time. Boy, they sound so great.

What we have found works at the church for volunteers on a budget are Alclair custom in ears (even the cheapest regardless of fidelity gives you a great seal if made right). The cheapest non custom are Shure 215s or even Easy KZ ZST Hybrid Balance (very budget option).

If you get a non custom pair, custom tips from an audiologist are a great option and are much cheaper to purchase in the future as your ears grow!

 

[s0c9]

I agree with everything you've said EXCEPT I will fight to the death over how great my future Sonics sound. When moving from Westone's to them it was like listening to music with a subwoofer for the first time. Boy, they sound so great.
!

And this is where the "preference" challenges lie.. Futuresonics ($825 and up) are NOT what I would call "cheap" and the 6-driver universal-fit Westone (W60) unit is only $699.
I've no exposure to futuresonics, but facts are that single driver buds - among other factors- induce ear fatigue more quickly than multi-driver buds.

 

[carsonchilders]

And this is where the "preference" challenges lie.. Futuresonics ($825 and up) are NOT what I would call "cheap" and the 6-driver universal-fit Westone (W60) unit is only $699.
I've no exposure to futuresonics, but facts are that single driver buds - among other factors- induce ear fatigue more quickly than multi-driver buds.

Well first of all, I specifically did not say Futuresonics were cheap. The entire premise of their in ear monitors is to fatigue less quickly by being less nuetral. You said yourself that you have no exposure to them, but luckily you had an opinion to share about them regardless!

Secondly, my Westones were not universal fit. Which is why I made the comparison in the first! They were multi drivers like you claimed were superior. You drew a lot of conclusions having barely read my comment!

I'm going to dip out before this talkbass thread becomes stereotypical.

 

[s0c9]

Well first of all, I specifically did not say Futuresonics were cheap. The entire premise of their in ear monitors is to fatigue less quickly by being less nuetral. You said yourself that you have no exposure to them, but luckily you had an opinion to share about them regardless!

Secondly, my Westones were not universal fit. Which is why I made the comparison in the first! They were multi drivers like you claimed were superior. You drew a lot of conclusions having barely read my comment!

I'm going to dip out before this talkbass thread becomes stereotypical.

LOL.. I gave no opinion on FutureSonics.. I quoted scientific fact about single drivers. Multi-drivers ARE superior.. it's simple mechanics and physics. Enjoy. OUT

 

[RichardW]

Did you see the latest version of A Star is Born? The Bradley Cooper character is losing his hearing and his doctor and manager pressure him to use IEMs, which he refuses to do and then he has sex with Lady Gaga. So if that's not an argument against IEMs, I don't know what is.

 

[eJake]

There's ALL kinds of info on IEM usage in this forum...
Sure, if you krank monitors - be they wedges or earbuds - you CAN damage your hearing over time.
The WHOLE point behind IEM's is that you get a far better [constant] mix, and get to keep the volume DOWN because the sound is closer to your ears. One of the "benefits" is that lower volumes will do far LESS (or no damage) to your hearing, unlike kranked wedges on a loud stage. They CAN be abused tho'

I have always recommended triple (or better) drivers (universal or custom) as single drivers tend to "distort" the audio, due to physical limitations of pushing the entire audio spectrum thru a single speaker over time. This in turn causes ear fatigue which cause you to turn up the volume so you can hear better, and so goes the vicious cycle, leading to hearing damage.
If you have ANY kind of ringing in your ears after a gig.. your listening levels were too high!
Triple drivers split the audio spectrum so each driver focuses on specific frequency ranges and delivers that range more efficiently. Less distortion, less fatigue and better quality audio.
Still. garbage in won't help. You need a decent mix in all of this.

Also.. it is IMPERATIVE that if you are using a WIRED IEM system that you have brick-wall LIMITER [somewhere] ahead of your buds. Most wireless IEM systems (I say "most" because I don't know that "all" do) have built-in limiters. The cheaper units are fixed, and the more expensive units have adjustable [threshold] limiters.

In conclusion, I would NOt say that IEM are intended to "mitigate hearing loss", but if one gets educated on the topic and buys decent gear, it can help with that.
Do NOT cheap out on buds or wireless gear.

I don't currently intend on buying in ears but I keep up with the chat here surrounding them. I like the concept a bunch.

I have been curious about the question in the OP about having the speakers so close to your ear drums. To that point, thanks for explaining. The limiter seems like such a great move, just to be sure.

 

[blastoff99]

I do not use in ears but I love the idea of no monitors on the stage. However, they say that earbud style headphones are the worst for causing hearing loss. It seems logical that having the monitors closer to the ears would be more harmful. I'm not suggesting that the purpose of in ears is to mitigate hearing loss but I am very curious if the technology has been tested under that lens.

Anyone have any comments or suggested reading?

I don't currently intend on buying in ears but I keep up with the chat here surrounding them. I like the concept a bunch.

I have been curious about the question in the OP about having the speakers so close to your ear drums. To that point, thanks for explaining. The limiter seems like such a great move, just to be sure.

It's hard to respond directly to a 'they say' comment without more context - who says earbuds are the worst for causing hearing loss, under what conditions, etc? I'm no audiologist, but here's my $0.02:

'Close to the eardrums' is not the problem. 'How loud' is the problem. I did Monitors and FOH (and occasionally played bass) for a large venue with an 8-piece band for years. Early in my time there, we went from floor wedges to IEMs (and amps in boxes). This was great - no more monitor wars on stage, FOH had a clean shot at it, stage looked better. Hooray. But not all the musicians were happy. Some complained that there wasn't enough volume from their packs.

Well, if I'm standing next to you and can hear it easily, there's plenty too much volume. You've already toasted your hearing, and by cranking your pack to 11 you're making it worse. And as others have pointed out here, a good seal is everything. I managed to accomplish that with Shure tips on $99 UE buds. I built a mix that had in it only what I needed to hear - for me, that wasn't a FOH mix or a karaoke mix, just kick, lead vox, a little rhythm electric, and me. Less in my mix = less need to crank it to hear what I need to hear.

I really can't think there's a difference between 120dB at your eardrums from a floor wedge (or police siren) and 120dB at your eardrums from an earbud. They're both 120dB at your eardrums. I don't have a measurement of what my pack volume was in dBA, but I can tell you that most of our musicians ran their packs at 7 or 8, and I never turned mine up past 3. I'm in middle age, have been around sound reinforcement since I was 12, and have used plenty of earbuds. My hearing's fine. Use isn't the problem. Abuse is.

 

[crammit442]

Quality custom (or even universal) IEM's provide phenomenal isolation, +/- 35 db. A good fit/mix and there's no need to for high SPL'S. Used as intended, they can give excellent hearing protection. Admittedly, good IEM's and receivers are pricey to set up right and get a good mix, but there's a reason that nearly all major acts have made the switch. Worth every penny IMO.
Charles

 

[Fun Size Nick]

As others have said, the thing that makes IEMs potentially safer than wedges is the isolation and therefore your ability to have them at a low volume but still hear what is going on. With wedges, if you have a loud additional source (eg drums or guitar amp) you need to turn the wedge up louder to hear it over that source, even with earplugs in.

LOL.. I gave no opinion on FutureSonics.. I quoted scientific fact about single drivers. Multi-drivers ARE superior.. it's simple mechanics and physics. Enjoy. OUT

Just so we're not comparing apples & oranges, Future Sonics use large dynamic drivers, which have a much wider range of optimum frequency response than the balanced armatures which are more common in IEMs. It's a very different set of mechanics and physics. If you think about your classic studio over-the-ear cans, they typically use a single large dynamic per ear - the future sonics use a smaller driver but it's the same idea.

 

[MNAirHead]

No cymbals crashing or loud guitars in your ears = win

 

[darkwasthenight]

One of the most damaging things that I see quite regularly, usually from musicians who don't like using IEMs but have them anyway, is taking one earbud out to hear the ambient sound. I get that IEMs can be weird and isolating, especially in a small venue, but your 'ambient' ear is still taking a battering and the 'isolated' one is getting it even worse because you're having to crank the volume directly into your ear to be heard over the stage sound!

 

[Bander]

They are still relatively new, limited data, but my intuition is that they are very risky for hearing loss, without some real restraint and analysis, that nobody's conducting. I think ear buds in general are highly risky, as they divorce the sound pressure levels at your ear, from the missing tactile vibration usually associated with natural sound. You don't just hear loud noises and volume, you also feel them. Your brain and body have learned to couple both sensations together, including the redline and warning thresholds. Without the vibration, you are at risk of exceeding the SPLs in your ear, and creating damage, and not knowing it - the pain won't be felt till its too late.

 

[iwearpumas]

I was considering getting a pair of 64 Audio IEMs, but I have to figure out a system for it to work out of.

 

[backin82]

One of the most damaging things that I see quite regularly, usually from musicians who don't like using IEMs but have them anyway, is taking one earbud out to hear the ambient sound. I get that IEMs can be weird and isolating, especially in a small venue, but your 'ambient' ear is still taking a battering and the 'isolated' one is getting it even worse because you're having to crank the volume directly into your ear to be heard over the stage sound!

I've mentioned this before, but the second half of this post is avoidable. Simply set your volume / mix with both IEMs in, then remove one side (preferably the opposite side from the drummer) or remove it slightly enough to hear some of the room and DO NOT change the volume unless both IEMs are fully in.

 

[carsonchilders]

I've mentioned this before, but the second half of this post is avoidable. Simply set your volume / mix with both IEMs in, then remove one side (preferably the opposite side from the drummer) or remove it slightly enough to hear some of the room and DO NOT change the volume unless both IEMs are fully in.

Or get in ears with ambient noise ports.

 

[backin82]

Or get in ears with ambient noise ports.

How much does that cost? I'd pay extra for that, for sure. But I also don't have the funds to use expensive IEMs, so.....

 

[carsonchilders]

How much does that cost?

Not much on the front end if you buy in ears that have swappable ports. But realizing you wish you had them after you have a pair... probably expensive.