In Ears and Hearing Loss

[FerK]

If you ABSOLUTELY need ambient sound, just add an audience mic. I've been playing with IEM for a few years and as isolating as my Shure 425s are, I can still hear a bit of audience, clapping, yelling, calling me names, etc. Just nowhere near as loud as without them.

 

[HolmeBass]

Not much on the front end if you buy in ears that have swappable ports. But realizing you wish you had them after you have a pair... probably expensive.

Can't you also just run an ambient mic into the in-ear mix, but leave it out of FOH?

 

[DanGroove]

Or get in ears with ambient noise ports.

I had a pair with ambient noise filters and I really didn't notice any benefit. I ended up going will full isolation when I upgraded to custom molds. I didn't really get anything useful from the ambience and still had to pull one out when I wanted to speak to someone else on stage or take an audience request.

We ended up putting a couple of mics with switches on stage they were only in the in-ear mixes, so when the bandleader wanted to call out changes or anyone needed to communicate they would just use the talk mics.

 

[Enos]

I do not use in ears but I love the idea of no monitors on the stage. However, they say that earbud style headphones are the worst for causing hearing loss. It seems logical that having the monitors closer to the ears would be more harmful. I'm not suggesting that the purpose of in ears is to mitigate hearing loss but I am very curious if the technology has been tested under that lens.

Anyone have any comments or suggested reading?

I am a bass player and usually am beside the drummer. We use the IEM system and most use some type of earbuds. Since I'm not out front, I use headphones, which I can buy relatively cheap, and adjust the mix to what I need to hear. Has worked great for about ten years now.

 

[s0c9]

Just so we're not comparing apples & oranges, Future Sonics use large dynamic drivers, which have a much wider range of optimum frequency response than the balanced armatures which are more common in IEMs. It's a very different set of mechanics and physics. If you think about your classic studio over-the-ear cans, they typically use a single large dynamic per ear - the future sonics use a smaller driver but it's the same idea.

Thanks Nick.. I'm fully aware of the difference between the 2 and that FutureSonics uses a dynamic driver.
The physics/science around both driver types are the same - with respect to a single driver having to replicate the full audio spectrum. They both have physical limitations and both introduce levels of distortion during replication.
Think of having a PA cabinet with only ONE speaker (speaker size is not terribly important) thru which the entire band is being pushed. It's not going to sound real good due to the physical/mechanical limitations of one speaker trying to reproduce the entire audio spectrum. Now put that right up against your ear. ??

Now think of the same band being pushed thru a 3-way PA speaker (ie. triple drivers). It will have FAR LESS distortion and sound MUCH CLEARER due to each driver handling [ONLY] specific frequency ranges.

To clarify for all readers, as I believe there is mucho confusion over what I posted earlier.
My comparator was the difference between single and triple driver buds.. not a specific vendor product. I used futuresonics because the poster I responded to stated they used that brand and they are single driver buds. It doesn't matter whether those are BA or dynamic. STILL single drivers.. the same principles apply.
thanks.

 

[redwood]

They are still relatively new, limited data, but my intuition is that they are very risky for hearing loss, without some real restraint and analysis, that nobody's conducting. I think ear buds in general are highly risky, as they divorce the sound pressure levels at your ear, from the missing tactile vibration usually associated with natural sound. You don't just hear loud noises and volume, you also feel them. Your brain and body have learned to couple both sensations together, including the redline and warning thresholds. Without the vibration, you are at risk of exceeding the SPLs in your ear, and creating damage, and not knowing it - the pain won't be felt till its too late.

I think you are underestimating the research that HAS been done on this subject. I have a good friend who is one of the most highly respected, and well written audiologists in the world. He is also a multi instrumentalist. His exact words to me were "Based on research and personal experience I will never play a gig without my IEM's". I'm sorry to say your intuition is wrong based on existing and continuing research. I don't have any papers to reference at the moment, but I'll look them up and add to the conversation here.
Of course you can crank the db level to a damaging level, but on almost all IEM systems do have limiters. And if you don't understand the concept behind them, and choose to crank them like the kid on the bus who's beats are loud enough to hear 5 rows away, you get what you deserve. You can't fix stupid.
That said, I am SOOO glad I got my IEM's a couple years ago. I can drive home from gigs now, in a quiet car, and actually not have the crazy ringing I had before I got them. Night and day difference. I wish I had gotten them years ago.

 

[lfmn16]

Did you see the latest version of A Star is Born? The Bradley Cooper character is losing his hearing and his doctor and manager pressure him to use IEMs, which he refuses to do and then he has sex with Lady Gaga. So if that's not an argument against IEMs, I don't know what is.

That didn't work for me. I refuse to use IEMs, but Lady Gaga still won't have sex with me.

 

[bassdude51]

Not a direct comment on "in ears" but a Google search shows that George Martin (The Beatles) and Pete Townsend lose of hearing was mostly due to headphone use.

I read somewhere that if we can not carry on a conversation with headphones or earbuds in place, then the volume is too loud and can damage our ears.

 

[s0c9]

Not a direct comment on "in ears" but a Google search shows that George Martin (The Beatles) and Pete Townsend lose of hearing was mostly due to headphone use.

I read somewhere that if we can not carry on a conversation with headphones or earbuds in place, then the volume is too loud and can damage our ears.

If one is used to having aloud stage when playing, one tends to turn up the headphone volumes to match ?
idk.. but judicious control of IEM volumes will definitely NOT do the damage that loud stage wedges do.
One can always krank stuff and damage your hearing..

 

[Fun Size Nick]

Not a direct comment on "in ears" but a Google search shows that George Martin (The Beatles) and Pete Townsend lose of hearing was mostly due to headphone use.

I read somewhere that if we can not carry on a conversation with headphones or earbuds in place, then the volume is too loud and can damage our ears.

The big variable here is whether the headphones/earbuds are isolating or not. I can't carry on a conversation with my IEMs in even if they're unplugged!

Thanks Nick.. I'm fully aware of the difference between the 2 and that FutureSonics uses a dynamic driver.
The physics/science around both driver types are the same - with respect to a single driver having to replicate the full audio spectrum. They both have physical limitations and both introduce levels of distortion during replication.
Think of having a PA cabinet with only ONE speaker (speaker size is not terribly important) thru which the entire band is being pushed. It's not going to sound real good due to the physical/mechanical limitations of one speaker trying to reproduce the entire audio spectrum. Now put that right up against your ear. ??

Now think of the same band being pushed thru a 3-way PA speaker (ie. triple drivers). It will have FAR LESS distortion and sound MUCH CLEARER due to each driver handling [ONLY] specific frequency ranges.

To clarify for all readers, as I believe there is mucho confusion over what I posted earlier.
My comparator was the difference between single and triple driver buds.. not a specific vendor product. I used futuresonics because the poster I responded to stated they used that brand and they are single driver buds. It doesn't matter whether those are BA or dynamic. STILL single drivers.. the same principles apply.
thanks.

What I was trying to get at is that BAs have much greater limitations with regard to optimum frequency range than dynamics do. The principles/physics/mechanics/etc are therefore not the same across the two types. The volume of sound being reproduced also makes a difference as such limitations become more evident at higher volumes. Again, I would cite the use of single large dynamic drivers for studio reference headphones as a case in point.

 

[s0c9]

What I was trying to get at is that BAs have much greater limitations with regard to optimum frequency range than dynamics do. The principles/physics/mechanics/etc are therefore not the same across the two types. The volume of sound being reproduced also makes a difference as such limitations become more evident at higher volumes. Again, I would cite the use of single large dynamic drivers for studio reference headphones as a case in point.

True, BA's do have greater limitations, but MANY single driver buds are not BA's. Shure SE215's (for example) are dynamic, Westone UM-1 and Pro10's are BA.
Best dynamic driver IEMs?
Link Removed
I won't argue over the physical differences between the 2 types, they BOTH suffer from mechanical limitations in replicating the full 20-20 audio spectrum, tho the degree and thresholds may differ.
Even dual drivers are generally still better. ymmv.

Totally agree on the volume aspect tho'..

 

[Paulabass]

My in ears are much quieter than the stage volume.
A couple little tips about using in ears- Put a peak limiter on each aux going to ears. People do dumb stuff on stage, and this will help if someone hits a cowbell near a mic, or drops a mic. Turn off gates on all the channels going to your ears. You will hear them opening and closing.

 

[Bullitt5135]

Before switching to IEMs, I was really starting to struggle with ear pain from loud amps, monitors and cymbals -- even when using $150 custom Westone ear plugs. In my case, the volume aggravated TMJ in my jaw, which translated to severe pain in my left ear. Fortunately, I quit that band situation and joined a new band that was 100% IEM. After using cheap MEE brand earbds for a few months (they did the job), I bit the bullet and spent about $500 for custom-molded InEarz. Long story short -- no ear pain whatsoever and I can actually hear what the band is playing.

For those of you considering IEMs but are reluctant to spend the money, all I can say is it was well worth it for me. Seriously, maybe you have some other gear you can sell to generate funds like an extra bass you never play, or an old bass rig or pedals that are collecting dust. If you are concerned about your hearing, just find a way.

 

[bass12]

One of the things I like best about IEMs is that they give me the ability to attenuate the volume of various instruments by cutting them out of my mix completely. If I'm near the drums then I typically don't need them in my IEM mix at all. Same with horns.

 

[crammit442]

One of the things I like best about IEMs is that they give me the ability to attenuate the volume of various instruments by cutting them out of my mix completely. If I'm near the drums then I typically don't need them in my IEM mix at all. Same with horns.

I don't have time to find it, but there's a good article somewhere where Rush (Geddy, Alex, Neal) discuss how they have their personal monitors mixed. They each have very different mixes based on their individual needs.
Charles

 

[crammit442]

I think you are underestimating the research that HAS been done on this subject. I have a good friend who is one of the most highly respected, and well written audiologists in the world. He is also a multi instrumentalist. His exact words to me were "Based on research and personal experience I will never play a gig without my IEM's". I'm sorry to say your intuition is wrong based on existing and continuing research. I don't have any papers to reference at the moment, but I'll look them up and add to the conversation here.
Of course you can crank the db level to a damaging level, but on almost all IEM systems do have limiters. And if you don't understand the concept behind them, and choose to crank them like the kid on the bus who's beats are loud enough to hear 5 rows away, you get what you deserve. You can't fix stupid.
That said, I am SOOO glad I got my IEM's a couple years ago. I can drive home from gigs now, in a quiet car, and actually not have the crazy ringing I had before I got them. Night and day difference. I wish I had gotten them years ago.

Absolutely agree! IEM's are definitely NOT a new technology. The level of isolation is the number one feature they provide. Balanced armature/dynamic driver is simply a personal preference choice. The benefit is the ability to clearly hear the mix at SAFE spl levels. Total no brainier, IMO.
Charles

P.S. A slightly humorous side note. A friend of mine that does landscaping was cutting my yard using Apple earbuds. I told him he ought to look into a set of universal IEM's so he'd get some actual hearing protection. He told me what they were fine.....he just had to turn the music up louder to hear over the mower......

 

[DanGroove]

......... P.S. A slightly humorous side note. A friend of mine that does landscaping was cutting my yard using Apple earbuds. I told him he ought to look into a set of universal IEM's so he'd get some actual hearing protection. He told me what they were fine.....he just had to turn the music up louder to hear over the mower......

LOL. Sounds like he totally missed the point. I actually use my old IEM's for mowing for exactly that reason. Protects my ears from the noise of the mower/weedeater AND allows me to hear and enjoy my music without turn it up to damaging levels.

 

[FerK]

LOL. Sounds like he totally missed the point. I actually use my old IEM's for mowing for exactly that reason. Protects my ears from the noise of the mower/weedeater AND allows me to hear and enjoy my music without turn it up to damaging levels.

Of course he missed the point, which is why crammit said "A slightly humorous note".

 

[crammit442]

Not a direct comment on "in ears" but a Google search shows that George Martin (The Beatles) and Pete Townsend lose of hearing was mostly due to headphone use.

I read somewhere that if we can not carry on a conversation with headphones or earbuds in place, then the volume is too loud and can damage our ears.

There's no doubt that headphone use can easily cause hearing damage. Nothing about in or over ear monitors/phones is any different than any other source of sound pressure. Too loud is too loud. Good monitors should isolate sufficiently so that normal conversation is difficult or impossible.
Charles

 

[DanGroove]

There's no doubt that headphone use can easily cause hearing damage. Nothing about in or over ear monitors/phones is any different than any other source of sound pressure. Too loud is too loud. Good monitors should isolate sufficiently so that normal conversation is difficult or impossible.
Charles

Exactly. I can't carry on a normal conversation with my custom molds in. Not playing. Just in my ears but unplugged.