In Ears and Hearing Loss

[s0c9]

Exactly. I can't carry on a normal conversation with my custom molds in. Not playing. Just in my ears but unplugged.

I can with mine.. 1964 A8's.. they have the Invalid Link Removed technology, now re-branded by 64audio as APEX (I assume due to contractual issues).
Eech ear contains a pressure equalization diaphragm that basically acts like an ambient port.
I can leave my ears in all night and hear outside sounds quite clearly (assuming no audio is playing) without removing them from my ears.
I also keep my audio levels as LOW as possible during a gig.
My older set of 64audio Qi's do NOT have ADEL's and yes.. I generally have to pull one to communicate/hear/talk on stage.

 

[crammit442]

Exactly. I can't carry on a normal conversation with my custom molds in. Not playing. Just in my ears but unplugged.

I don't play live so my customs are purely audiophile quality hearing protection. I use them at work, with power equipment, etc. I can't count the times someone has come up behind me while I was wearing them and scared the bejesus out of me. That said, if I look at the person speaking to me I can make out what they're saying. Kind of like super muffled lip reading. The isolation is so complete that it's unwise to use them with a new piece of power equipment until you have a feel for the way it runs. I burned a belt on a Walker mower because the blower jammed and I didn't hear it and wasn't familiar enough with it to feel the vibration.
Charles

 

[Wasnex]

I do not use in ears but I love the idea of no monitors on the stage. However, they say that earbud style headphones are the worst for causing hearing loss. It seems logical that having the monitors closer to the ears would be more harmful. I'm not suggesting that the purpose of in ears is to mitigate hearing loss but I am very curious if the technology has been tested under that lens.

Anyone have any comments or suggested reading?

To me there is a distinction between earbuds and quality IEM. Earbuds just sit on your ears and don't seal. Quality IEMs seal. The seal is important for isolation and extended frequency response. Without the seal, there is more of a tendency to turn up, so you are exposed to higher SPLs.

@s0c9 'scomments on limiting are extremely important and often insufficiently attended to. It's not enough to have a limiter inline with your IEMs, you need to know how it operates and it has to be set/calibrated properly.

Some limiters operate off the input signal level. Some have a fixed threshold and some have a variable threshold. With a fixed threshold the audio tech sets the level from the mixing console so it is just below the limiter. With a variable threshold the user adjusts the threshold manually to work with the incoming signal level. The process is basically to adjust the signal or threshold for proper limiting, and then set the volume.

Some limiters operate off the output signal level. With this type of limiter the sensitivity of your IEMs must be selected to work with the threshold of the limiter. If the IEMs are too efficient, the SPL will reach dangerous levels before limiting is engaged. If the IEMs are not efficient enough, limiting will occur prematurely, so it will not be possible to drive the IEMs to a sufficient volume and the audio will be modulated or possibly distorted by the limiter

 

[Wasnex]

Can’t you also just run an ambient mic into the in-ear mix, but leave it out of FOH?

Yep; I have run systems with shotgun mics to pickup the audience and a couple of mics with push to talk foot switches for intraband communication.

 

[denhou1974]

I'll never again play a gig without either musician plugs or my molded buds. I put the buds in when I get to the club - no loud music at all. Shure pack volume is at 3 or 4 all night. With the universal buds I was at 6-7 so the isolation does matter.
People who are new to IEMs usually crank the pack volume then complain that IEMs make them "play worse". Turn the volume down. Let your ears adjust.

 

[Bander]

I don't have any papers to reference at the moment, but I'll look them up and add to the conversation here.

You don't need to research anything for me. I'm not risking my hearing on any research advocating a new and less understood product, that is a patch, not a solution to excessive damaging volume levels, by increasing those levels within the ear canal. I answer these risk-based questions this way: Game theory says, I can and do ignore IEM, and function just fine (I do this about weekly). Game theory also says I can try IEM and *maybe be more* functional and keep my hearing, or loose my hearing without warning. The low risk choice is to manage levels without IEM. If I'm wrong, I keep my hearing. If IEM users are wrong, they loose some hearing. I'm going low risk.

Here's an article on IEM risks from the Journal of the American Federation of Musicians US and Canada:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[crammit442]

I'll never again play a gig without either musician plugs or my molded buds. I put the buds in when I get to the club - no loud music at all. Shure pack volume is at 3 or 4 all night. With the universal buds I was at 6-7 so the isolation does matter.
People who are new to IEMs usually crank the pack volume then complain that IEMs make them "play worse". Turn the volume down. Let your ears adjust.

Exactly! The isolation a good IEM provides is incredible. It's awesome to be able to be in such a high noise environment and still hear crystal clear details at a safe level. When I got my first set of customs I had a hearing test done. Music definitely needs to be be heard and felt, but there's a fine line between enough and too much. I went back one year later and had a new hearing test done to be sure I wasn't doing any damage. The new test was within the margin of error from the test a year earlier. I don't think I'll ever be able to enjoy lower end phones again. I know getting the mix just right for each musician takes a bit of trial and error, but I'm sure it's worth it.
Charles

 

[Fun Size Nick]

You don't need to research anything for me. I'm not risking my hearing on any research advocating a new and less understood product, that is a patch, not a solution to excessive damaging volume levels, by increasing those levels within the ear canal. I answer these risk-based questions this way: Game theory says, I can and do ignore IEM, and function just fine (I do this about weekly). Game theory also says I can try IEM and *maybe be more* functional and keep my hearing, or loose my hearing without warning. The low risk choice is to manage levels without IEM. If I'm wrong, I keep my hearing. If IEM users are wrong, they loose some hearing. I'm going low risk.

Here's an article on IEM risks from the Journal of the American Federation of Musicians US and Canada:

Invalid Link Removed

The difference is that the volume levels are not being increased within the ear canal. On the contrary, the isolation that IEMs provide allow the volume levels reaching your eardrums to be reduced.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

True, BA's do have greater limitations, but MANY single driver buds are not BA's. Shure SE215's (for example) are dynamic, Westone UM-1 and Pro10's are BA.
Best dynamic driver IEMs?
Link Removed
I won't argue over the physical differences between the 2 types, they BOTH suffer from mechanical limitations in replicating the full 20-20 audio spectrum, tho the degree and thresholds may differ.
Even dual drivers are generally still better. ymmv.

Totally agree on the volume aspect tho'..

We're probably getting a bit too OT so let's leave it there...I think we might have scared off the OP

 

[Bander]

The difference is that the volume levels are not being increased within the ear canal. On the contrary, the isolation that IEMs provide allow the volume levels reaching your eardrums to be reduced.

I know that's the claim. There's no way for you or I to verify that, because we can't measure it, nor can we even scale it based on levels that are too loud, once we break the learned relationship between the ear's sense, and vibration and tactile sense. The brain has learned to use both together to create the redlines and danger thresholds. All that volume and SPL in the ear without the associated structure born vibration from air against your clothes and skin, or floor vibrations, or reflected sounds off walls and surroundings is highly unnatural. I'm not a crusader against them. I play in one band where the drummer uses them and he's a smart guy that does research. I'm just not risking it, because I don't need to.

 

[DanGroove]

I know that's the claim. There's no way for you or I to verify that, because we can't measure it, nor can we even scale it based on levels that are too loud, once we break the learned relationship between the ear's sense, and vibration and tactile sense. The brain has learned to use both together to create the redlines and danger thresholds. All that volume and SPL in the ear without the associated structure born vibration from air against your clothes and skin, or floor vibrations, or reflected sounds off walls and surroundings is highly unnatural. I'm not a crusader against them. I play in one band where the drummer uses them and he's a smart guy that does research. I'm just not risking it, because I don't need to.

I feel that though it doesn’t include a lot of measurements and spl information, going IEM and learning to dial the volume down eliminated any ear ringing that I used to experience after gigs. I guess sign of hearing loss experienced is a measurement...

 

[Bander]

I feel that though it doesn’t include a lot of measurements and spl information, going IEM and learning to dial the volume down eliminated any ear ringing that I used to experience after gigs. I guess sign of hearing loss experienced is a measurement...

I hope it works for you and others, and doesn't cause damage long term. I'm waiting it out, and hope it becomes conventionally accepted as 100% safe.

 

[JKos]

All that volume and SPL in the ear without the associated structure born vibration from air against your clothes and skin, or floor vibrations, or reflected sounds off walls and surroundings is highly unnatural.

I think you're missing the whole point that you need LESS volume in your ears when using IEMs. Anyone that thinks it is safer to use monitors on a loud stage than IEMs is an idiot.

hope it becomes conventionally accepted as 100% safe.

There are those still convinced it is safer not to wear a seatbelt...

- John

 

[eJake]

We're probably getting a bit too OT so let's leave it there...I think we might have scared off the OP

Ain't no one scared man. Some of us have gigs

 

[eJake]

first two paragraphs of that article linked in post #46 pretty much agree with the consensus of this thread.

 

[Wasnex]

I know that's the claim. There's no way for you or I to verify that, because we can't measure it, nor can we even scale it based on levels that are too loud, once we break the learned relationship between the ear's sense, and vibration and tactile sense. The brain has learned to use both together to create the redlines and danger thresholds. All that volume and SPL in the ear without the associated structure born vibration from air against your clothes and skin, or floor vibrations, or reflected sounds off walls and surroundings is highly unnatural. I'm not a crusader against them. I play in one band where the drummer uses them and he's a smart guy that does research. I'm just not risking it, because I don't need to.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's not possible to measure the SPL in the ear canal. The necessary instruments are available to do this, and have been for a long time. I have had audiologist do tests where they inserted sensors and transducers into my ears at the same time to do various tests. The also stopped my ears while the sensors and transducers were in place, and used a different type of sensor to measure pressure variations in my ears, as they played and measured tones. This is called tympanometry if you want to read about it.

You do have some valid concern though because IEM systems are frequently not run by people who adequately understand them, or know how to properly configure the limiters. Using IEMs properly does reduce ones exposure to SPL, but accidents happen. An accident with an improperly limited system can definitely do damage quickly. However an accident with a high powered stage monitor can also quickly do a lot of damage...the SPL they can produce is really quite extraordinary. Much higher than many IEMs. The risk of a feedback spike goes down dramatically when everyone is using IEMs...but feedback can still occur especially if vocalists go out in front of the main speakers.

The first time I put a IEM system together I had to submit a package that was reviewed by an audiologist. That was around 1995 or 1996. The system used automatic digital feedback controllers and a multiband brick wall limiter called an Aphex Dominator. The Beltpacks we used also included a wideband brick wall limiter. My package to the audiologist included calibration procedures for setting the limiters and an SPL comparison that one of the early IEM market leaders had funded. The audiologist felt the method for the SPL comparison was valid, and the system would improve hearing conservation providing it was operated per the guidelines I had provided. We got the green light.

Of course using this system with two levels of brick wall limiting would not be as safe as simply wearing 30dB foam ear plugs. But it allowed us to hear much better than wearing foam ear plugs. You gotta do what you gotta do my friend .

 

[crammit442]

View attachment 3277856 first two paragraphs of that article linked in post #46 pretty much agree with the consensus of this thread.

Right on the money! Again, I'm not playing live, but I definitely remember having to play music quite loud with non isolating earphones. The adjustment to far lower volume levels w/customs was very easy. The statistics on hearing damage from standard earbuds is overwhelming. I know for me that it's very obvious when I'm listening at a harmful level. The isolation is so great that there just isn't a reason to listen at high SPL's.
Charles

 

[Bander]

I think you're missing the whole point that you need LESS volume in your ears when using IEMs. Anyone that thinks it is safer to use monitors on a loud stage than IEMs is an idiot.


There are those still convinced it is safer not to wear a seatbelt...

- John

I'm sure that was gratifying, and you are convinced you've convinced me,
1) I'm wrong to feel as I do, and I will soon run out and buy IEMs for the whole family
2) you've measured the SPL within the ear canal, and compared it with [unknown] proximity thresholds, and all levels are safe, no matter the signal content or how you operate an IEM, for all IEM products on the market, with healthy margin, soon to be approved by the surgeon general
3) strawman parallels are effective debate techniques
4) I'm an idiot

These discussions are convincing me the current users aren't using the same criteria that I use when making important decisions.

 

[redwood]

You don't need to research anything for me. I'm not risking my hearing on any research advocating a new and less understood product, that is a patch, not a solution to excessive damaging volume levels, by increasing those levels within the ear canal. I answer these risk-based questions this way: Game theory says, I can and do ignore IEM, and function just fine (I do this about weekly). Game theory also says I can try IEM and *maybe be more* functional and keep my hearing, or loose my hearing without warning. The low risk choice is to manage levels without IEM. If I'm wrong, I keep my hearing. If IEM users are wrong, they loose some hearing. I'm going low risk.

Here's an article on IEM risks from the Journal of the American Federation of Musicians US and Canada:

Invalid Link Removed

Interesting read.
So tell me, what types of situations do you play in where you are managing levels? Do you play with ridiculously loud drummers and guitarists in a rock band setting or are you playing in jazz trios? Somewhere in the middle? Have you ever been subjected to spontaneous feedback?
What form of hearing protection do you use?
And again, these are not "new and less understood products". They have been around for quite a while. And I doubt that the vast majority of professional, touring musicians would use them night after night if they were worried about them blowing up in their ears.
Lastly, SPL is SPL, whether it's from a source 100' away or from an ear bud. With IEM's and good isolating earpieces you have total control over the volume (SPL) you are subjected to.

 

[s0c9]

I'm sure that was gratifying, and you are convinced you've convinced me,
1) I'm wrong to feel as I do, and I will soon run out and buy IEMs for the whole family
2) you've measured the SPL within the ear canal, and compared it with [unknown] proximity thresholds, and all levels are safe, no matter the signal content or how you operate an IEM, for all IEM products on the market, with healthy margin, soon to be approved by the surgeon general
3) strawman parallels are effective debate techniques
4) I'm an idiot

These discussions are convincing me the current users aren't using the same criteria that I use when making important decisions.

I'm curious as to what criteria that might be relative to IEM use...